Are we finally done with the Halford experiement?

Gunk wrote:

Wolverine wrote:

Ummm...with Carlino not starting and KC moving to PG we needed a 2. So, Rose had to experiment with who the right 2 would be. Fine, it wasn't the main experiment, but Halford at the 2 was an experiment.



On another note, people keeping throwing out there that MC isn't a "true PG." What's a "true PG"? Please define it. Is KC a "true PG"? If not, who is closer to being a "true PG," KC or MC?



Seems like the term "true PG" in relation to MC is used by people more as a back handed excuse/compliment than anything descriptive at all.

Was Magic Johnson or John Stockton a true point guard?

If the current all-time assists per game leader at BYU isn't even a "true" point guard, then I don't know who could be ;)



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Seriously...and that's part of my point. MC gets beaten up over not being a "true PG" because he can score with the ball, but the reality is he's one of the best if not best ball distributers we've had at BYU. If I remember correctly, he only trails Matt Montague in the ball distribution category. And, as much as we all liked Montague, we lamented how he rarely scored and posed no offensive threat.

My problem with Matty isn't that he can score with the ball, it's that he at times, takes wild, desperation shots early in the shot clock with no need to rush. No one can complain about how he's been playing recently, but he has hit multiple game stretches every season he's played at BYU where wild shots are far too common.

Cougarbib wrote:
We probably have an all-time dunk or block leader in the books, too, but almost never have a true 5.



We have had a ton of 2, 3, and 4.





I measure it by what position the few that play pro ball end up playing.

So Jimmer was a true PG then. He plays PG in the NBA.



What if a player never makes it to the NBA, does that mean we never know what their "true" position was?



If MC were to go to the NBA you can be certain he'd play PG.

Gunk



Yes. Montague was not a great point either. We do not get them.



A good PG distributes first, drives and dishes, but must be a scoring threat or driving and dishing does not work. Must play solid defense. Must shoot close to 50% and 75% or better FT.



It is well documented that MC came to BYU disgruntled because UCLA told him he would not be PG.



Now, after being benched, he is actually starting to look like a PG most of the time.



That is why he is getting starter minutes now.



Looking pretty good all around. Hope it holds up on the road.

And yet if you watch closely, Rose constantly has to calm him down, almost like a parent would a child. He is an upper classman. He needs to stay level headed, which he did up until the fifth 3point basket, then he got cocky and jacked up another early three that was deep, flat and not in rhythm. Matty has to keep his head about him, which he is doing better.

Jimmer went crazy and shot himself off the gym too... I mean, give Carlino a little credit. If he wasn't on our roster and we had someone "safe" like Cusick full time we lose 2/3 of our games this year, easily. Most of you are forgetting that Haws was a big No-show for the majority of our big non-con games, making all of his points on the free throw line of games already lost.



Carlino saved this season early on, and then saved it again coming off the bench.

Jimmer could make the shots. Carlino can't. Carlino has won us some games this season, I'm glad we have him. He also cost us some too. You take the good, you take the bad and you get the facts of life Carlino.

Gunk wrote:

We probably have an all-time dunk or block leader in the books, too, but almost never have a true 5.



We have had a ton of 2, 3, and 4.





I measure it by what position the few that play pro ball end up playing.

So Jimmer was a true PG then. He plays PG in the NBA.



What if a player never makes it to the NBA, does that mean we never know what their "true" position was?



If MC were to go to the NBA you can be certain he'd play PG.

Jimmer with a little better defense would be a starting point guard.



When I say that MC is not a true point guard, I mean not a real good point guard. And, as I said, the guy is changing how he plays and is moving closer to it.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Jimmer went crazy and shot himself off the gym too... I mean, give Carlino a little credit. If he wasn't on our roster and we had someone "safe" like Cusick full time we lose 2/3 of our games this year, easily. Most of you are forgetting that Haws was a big No-show for the majority of our big non-con games, making all of his points on the free throw line of games already lost.



Carlino saved this season early on, and then saved it again coming off the bench.

Hopefully nobody claimed Cusick was a legit point guard.



Keeping in mind that you think that this team should have easily won 25 or more games, then the point guard to lead that kind of success would need to show up on some top ranked point guard list.



In fairness, I Google it and found him on a top 25 list published very early in the season - December. Then I found a mid January Top 13 list and he was not on it. It is fair to say that some national experts saw potential there. Then we started losing too many games and he fell off the radar. He could get back on the radar with a strong post season. He is getting starter minutes.

Wolverine wrote:

Ummm...with Carlino not starting and KC moving to PG we needed a 2. So, Rose had to experiment with who the right 2 would be. Fine, it wasn't the main experiment, but Halford at the 2 was an experiment.



On another note, people keeping throwing out there that MC isn't a "true PG." What's a "true PG"? Please define it. Is KC a "true PG"? If not, who is closer to being a "true PG," KC or MC?



Seems like the term "true PG" in relation to MC is used by people more as a back handed excuse/compliment than anything descriptive at all.

Was Magic Johnson or John Stockton a true point guard?

Magic Johnson. So long ago. So magical. I do not remember. He could play multiple positions quite well.



But Stockton. More recent. I have met him a few times. A friend of a friend. But, I do not live in Utah and only watched a few Jazz games. Not a big NBA fan other than teams with Cougs - that limits things.



But, when your tag line remembered by all of your fans is



"Stockton to Malone", yeah - he was a consumate point guard.



David Stockton. Michael Stockton. IdK. Have not watched them enough. Sheesh - same friend has a son that played with Nick Montana and I am still trying to figure out if he is a true QB. Lol.

Carlino has shown us he can be a great to elite point guard if he puts it all together at the same time. He is a legitimate scoring threat from 3 and driving to the hoop; he can get 5-10 assists in a game when he wants to; he can defend fairly well; he gets steals. The only thing keeping him from being an elite point guard is the mental game. He doesn't recognize his bad shots (early in shot click when we lead, out of rhythm, etc); has a hard time sticking to the game plan; is not focused at the FT line; seems to lack the calming presence of typical upper classman. I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered he had ADD (being serious, not calling the guy names). He plays like that, lack of focus, difficulty staying on task, slow learner, needing frequent redirection. He could be incredible if he got the mental aspect of the game in check.

BYULV wrote:
Carlino has shown us he can be a great to elite point guard if he puts it all together at the same time. He is a legitimate scoring threat from 3 and driving to the hoop; he can get 5-10 assists in a game when he wants to; he can defend fairly well; he gets steals. The only thing keeping him from being an elite point guard is the mental game. He doesn't recognize his bad shots (early in shot click when we lead, out of rhythm, etc); has a hard time sticking to the game plan; is not focused at the FT line; seems to lack the calming presence of typical upper classman. I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered he had ADD (being serious, not calling the guy names). He plays like that, lack of focus, difficulty staying on task, slow learner, needing frequent redirection. He could be incredible if he got the mental aspect of the game in check.

I'd agree with this. When Matty is on his game, there's few that are better. So I can understand posters love for him and their desire to see him start. But when he's distracted, there are few who are worse, so I can understand others desire for him to come off the bench.

BYULV wrote:
Carlino has shown us he can be a great to elite point guard if he puts it all together at the same time. He is a legitimate scoring threat from 3 and driving to the hoop; he can get 5-10 assists in a game when he wants to; he can defend fairly well; he gets steals. The only thing keeping him from being an elite point guard is the mental game. He doesn't recognize his bad shots (early in shot click when we lead, out of rhythm, etc); has a hard time sticking to the game plan; is not focused at the FT line; seems to lack the calming presence of typical upper classman. I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered he had ADD (being serious, not calling the guy names). He plays like that, lack of focus, difficulty staying on task, slow learner, needing frequent redirection. He could be incredible if he got the mental aspect of the game in check.

CARLINO POST OF THE PAST THREE YEARS.

Well said. Well diagnosed. Rosé is like his Executive Functioning/jimminy Cricket/alter ego that, when Carlino stopped fighting Rose and started responding to his coaching, he has considerably improved! He has all the skills he has just needed the mental improvements and maturity.

I think that we are taking some liberties here. We don't know that Carlino ever "fought" Roses coaching, or that "he isn't focused on the free throw line", or "lacks the calming presence of an upper classmen," "slow learner" etc etc.



From my perspective, he is the one that is always talking to the other guys' in timeouts and telling them what their roles are. He is no question the defensive leader on the court, and I would go so far as to say that he is the team leader, even from a bench role.

That is a problem with this team. It is not clear who the team leader is. Matt is certainly one if the leaders and would seem to be the most logical player to lead this team. He lost some of that edge in the middle of the season - perception that he was a me first player. He was not following direction from Rose. Thus the ill-fated shooting guard experiment followed by the off-the bench experiment. It is well documented that he told Rose he did not want to fill the assigned shooting guard role. Lately, he has been involving his teammates more fully. I think they look to him for leadership.



Oddly, Austin seems to be the more vocal player on the court. You see him trying to exert leadership during timeouts or coming out of them. I am not sure the other players connect with that.



Haws just plays hard and gets results. Does not seem to talk much or get in faces.



KC ignites things with big plays frequently - but seems to otherwise go quietly about his business.



The role of being THE Leader instead of a leader is clearly there for the taking by Carlin and I think the players generally like him - especially lately. Before he was wound too tight and too intense. I call that Shaved Head Carlino. Lately, he seems so much more relaxed and he genuinely seems to be having fun. If Carlino masters the art of self-control, I do not think he can avoid becoming THE Leader. Haws and KC seem to not want that role and I just do not think the players see Austin as the leader.



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I think we're self projecting A LOT onto Carlino.



Other than unsubstantiated rumors, most likely exaggerated by fans, there is no reason to suspect Carlino is a selfish, me-first player that refused to listen to Rose until Rose had no choice but to bench him. All conjecture.



We have no idea what's been said between MC and Rose. We have no idea what's in MC's head.



Carlino likes to play fast, play hard and have fun on the court. He likes to win. He's confident. Is he guilty of taking long 3s early in the shot clock, yes. But I highly doubt going through his head is "I gotta get mine" or "forget the team." Most likely it's, "I can make this shot and we need some points."



Rose likes to play fast. The team has been coached to shoot early in the shot clock and everybody has a green light. It's created some problems - MC shooting long bombs, Bartley driving uncontrollably and Haws forcing shots over defenders - but it's also generated wins for us and certainly is an entertaining brand of basketball to watch when things are clicking.



Rose's style got away from him a bit given the confident ballers he recruited. He's reigning in a bit and it's clear the players are just fine with it.

I could accept that MC may not be a "selfish" player, but he repeatedly showed reckless abandon. It was l Iike he had all gas pedal an no brake.which worked for awhile with Rose's system until it didnt in horrible losses to LMU and Pepp. Rosé re calibrated. Carlino did not. Carlino got benched. Carlino figured it out. Carlino playing much better consistently not episodically and schizo-frenetically. And still Rose has to calm him from the sidelines when he gets over-emotional.

Gunk wrote:
I think we're self projecting A LOT onto Carlino.



Other than unsubstantiated rumors, most likely exaggerated by fans, there is no reason to suspect Carlino is a selfish, me-first player that refused to listen to Rose until Rose had no choice but to bench him. All conjecture.



We have no idea what's been said between MC and Rose. We have no idea what's in MC's head.



Carlino likes to play fast, play hard and have fun on the court. He likes to win. He's confident. Is he guilty of taking long 3s early in the shot clock, yes. But I highly doubt going through his head is "I gotta get mine" or "forget the team." Most likely it's, "I can make this shot and we need some points."



Rose likes to play fast. The team has been coached to shoot early in the shot clock and everybody has a green light. It's created some problems - MC shooting long bombs, Bartley driving uncontrollably and Haws forcing shots over defenders - but it's also generated wins for us and certainly is an entertaining brand of basketball to watch when things are clicking.



Rose's style got away from him a bit given the confident ballers he recruited. He's reigning in a bit and it's clear the players are just fine with it.

Yes. Conjecture. And in your post - undetstatement. "Reigning in a bit". Really.



Let's stick to facts then.



Rose did "reign in Carlino a bit". That happened several times in December. Reigning in a bit means shouting corrections and showing frustration from the side line. A bit more is sending in a sub right after poor shot selection or a half court bounce pass turnover in traffic.



A major correction is losing the starting PG position and getting switched to the 2.



A major correction on top of a major correction is then getting benched and having to earn back minutes as backup PG.



A sign that the 2nd major correction finally achieved what was trying to be corrected, is that Rose has increased MC minutes at PG as long as he continues to get whatever change he wanted.



I totally agree that we can only conjecture what was said or what was in his head other than what has been said by Rose or Carlino to the media. Rose has said that Matt told him that he was not comfortable at the 2 and wanted to play as backup PG instead. Carlino has said that coming off the bench has made him a better player. And it seems to be working. Good enough for me.



I do not like player bashing. I do not think the comments I have made or that I am reading here are bashing him. I do not hearing anyone saying that he does not deserve a scholarship or that he is not a valuable contributor or that he cannot improve. He has improved. Improved late last year, too. Just needs to be more consistent. He had a great week. He was recognized for it by WCC. I hope he gives Rose what he wants the rest of the way.



I am sure that Rose expects a lot from his PG and team leader - especially the guy running the uptempo offense knowing when the break is not there and the shot is not there and the time to work for a better shot. Rose did not intend for his players to take bad shots. He intended for them to use the break to create good shots. I know. Conjecture. Reasonable conjecture imho.



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