To the Mods

So, since one of my phrases has now been called out, I will try and refrain from using it. However, that was probably the nicest way I could critique the player's contributions to the team. Now I am left to wonder, can I be critical of the team at any point? Or a player?



The phrase doesn't disparage the person's character, lack of desire or effort, or even say they aren't good at playing the game. It simply says that given the level of competition, he doesn't fit. The person I used this phrase on is much more athletic than I am or ever have been. In fact, at a specific level of the game he's an all-american (has the award to prove it). He was good enough in a game this year to score 28 points. That's impressive.



So, how should I critique this young persons play? I shouldn't say he sucks, because he's proven he can play the game really well, at a level that most of us couldn't fathom. Also, sucks could imply that he's not a good person and isn't trying hard. Should I just say he doesn't fit? Help me out here my friends. I feel we have the right to be critical, but I just want to know what phrasing to use as not to offend.

Great question, stuckin, I think it's fair and valid, and I'd love to hear the communities response.

I have no problem with people saying someone sucks, as long as they give their reasons to make it an evidence- or observation-backed opinion, rather than an ad hominem.



Ex. A:



"Hawkwing sucks!!!"



Doesn't fly for me. That's just a drive-by shot that adds nothing to the debate, and instead reads 'I just don't like the guy."



Ex. B:



"Hawkwing sucks---he banned me for three days after I stole the Y off his house and set it up in Chris Hill's front yard with a chimp in a BYU blue gimp suit and ball gag."



That one I'm okay with. Now there's something to talk about and an explanation of the alleged suck.

snoscythe wrote:
I have no problem with people saying someone sucks, as long as they give their reasons to make it an evidence- or observation-backed opinion, rather than an ad hominem.



Ex. A:



"Hawkwing sucks!!!"



Doesn't fly for me. That's just a drive-by shot that adds nothing to the debate, and instead reads 'I just don't like the guy."



Ex. B:



"Hawkwing sucks---he banned me for three days after I stole the Y off his house and set it up in Chris Hill's front yard with a chimp in a BYU blue gimp suit and ball gag."



That one I'm okay with. Now there's something to talk about and an explanation of the alleged suck.

I can't believe Hawkwing did that... ;)

stuckinbig10country wrote:
So, since one of my phrases has now been called out, I will try and refrain from using it. However, that was probably the nicest way I could critique the player's contributions to the team. Now I am left to wonder, can I be critical of the team at any point? Or a player?



The phrase doesn't disparage the person's character, lack of desire or effort, or even say they aren't good at playing the game. It simply says that given the level of competition, he doesn't fit. The person I used this phrase on is much more athletic than I am or ever have been. In fact, at a specific level of the game he's an all-american (has the award to prove it). He was good enough in a game this year to score 28 points. That's impressive.



So, how should I critique this young persons play? I shouldn't say he sucks, because he's proven he can play the game really well, at a level that most of us couldn't fathom. Also, sucks could imply that he's not a good person and isn't trying hard. Should I just say he doesn't fit? Help me out here my friends. I feel we have the right to be critical, but I just want to know what phrasing to use as not to offend.

I have no problem with constructive criticism of players and coaches. However, I do struggle with the simplistic view of some that any half-brained nitwit could do it better. The coaches and players at BYU are performing at the highest non-professional level that exists, and are doing it at a relatively high level of success. For me it is important to be thoughtful and respectful in my analysis and critiques. It is also important for me to keep everything in perspective. For me that perspective includes that I have no first-hand experiential knowledge of what it took for these student-athletes and coaches to reach the level they have achieved, what it takes to compete at that level, and what it takes to remain competitive day in and day out year after year. For me the proper perspective also includes reminding myself that I am a loyal and passionate fan who loves BYU sports, loves my alma mater BYU and all that it represents, and that I truly appreciate the student-athletes and coaches for the way in which they represent the university. Finally, my proper perspective includes reminding myself that all of my comments and critiques are nothing more than hypothetical at best. I am thankful that a site like this exists for all of us BYU fans and for the opportunity to bare our passion everything BYU athletics related. Go Cougars!

I get venting. During games some among us go ballistic at one error, or even a few in a row by a single player. For crying out loud LeBron James counts it a good game to make half his shots. Some even after the game don't calm done. I don't get people generalizing to say that this player sucks or that player is an embarrassment because whatever you think there is a reason he's playing, and unless you subscribe to the belief that Coach Rose or Mendenhall want to lose,then they're playing that player for a reason. Now the coaches might be off, but we sit in our armchairs away from practices, away from huddles and so we know much less than they. There sure are times when a player does poorly and I think it is fine to say so, but calling out someone who is In at the coach's direction, well I don't get.

My suggestion would be to avoid blanket statements like he sucks or he is not a D1 player. I would also avoid hyperbole. Remind ourselves that extreme words like terrible and atrocious should be reserved for the bottom 25% or less. There is a huge MIDDLE in between great and terrible - some posters are too binary and emotional in their assessments.



Take Halford. Let's pick on him. But, first, let's note some positives.



He actually is a D1 player. A scholarship D1 player. He is a great free throw shooter on a slightly below average free throw shooting team. Some argue that he is one of our best defenders. Others will argue the opposite. Nobody argues for the middle. He brings incredible energy and usually plays under control. At times he is lights out shooting the 3. Other times he can't make one to save his life. This is his first year as a D1 player. That might explain the hot and cold shooting. He may or may not prove to have upside as a senior. He is a team player. He is not a physical specimen. He is inconsistent at getting to the rack. He was a huge factor in at least two wins when BYU was struggling. Role player at this time. Winder deserves the starting job he took away from Halford.



No hyperbolic adjectives. Specific criticism instead of overly broad ones. Acknowledges some positives.



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While we're at it let's create a universal healthcare system...... (seriously we're sounding like some sniveling liberals arguing about semantics). We don't have to wussify this board, instead we need to simply hold people to a higher standard of argument. So you think he sucks... why? And be prepared for others to make their arguments why you're wrong then let the cards play out.... if you're right enough, people will take you serious. If you're wrong enough, well.. then it's you that sucks. ;)



This is a sports chat room. The words sucks, and not a d1 player, etc. etc. etc. are going to happen on this page. I could care less about that stuff. If you said Auggie Ambrosino was not a d1 player last year... well you would have been spot on.



The problem is the context. Guy has bad game, fan has meltdown. Team has bad game, fan has meltdown. Fan has bad day, fan comes on here and has meltdown. This can be an issue here, but I'm not about to support an amendment to police it... it's a sports forum... this stuff happens and it happens to good fans at times.



I prefers posters that have an opinion, believing in it (one problem I had with airturd, I don't think he believed half of what he was saying) and being able to support it with a good argument. (which he rarely ever did and many of our own fans aren't capable of). And of course being able to be an adult about it, when someone objectively chops your argument to bits. (no one is perfect here and we all make flawed leaps of logic at times... some more than others ;) ).



Airwolf was trolling. He was getting his kicks being on his hated teams board thinking he was outsmarting us and pointing out why whatever we thought about our beloved program was wrong. If we thought a game was a 10, he would try to convince us that it was a 4. If we thought it was a 4, he'd convince us it was a 0. There was zero objectivity and his intentions were obvious. His history is to try to be tolerable, but constantly pound his distorted and often deliberately exaggerated or inflated/deflated debate ad naseum, and eventually meltdown and ruin the experience on a forum like this and overwhelm the forum with negativity.



I know the long time posters here and what they're going to do when we have a bad game (some go off the deep end, some constantly try to find a silver lining.. (though sometimes I don't think one exists; for example the LMU and Pepperdine losses)). I know the long time posters here and what they're going to do when we have a good game (some will worry that X player is now going to go pro ("uhoh Tyler Haws is going to leave early" ...seriously fat chance) or the head coach is going to bolt for greener pastures.. almost never happens at BYU, ever... but the fans still speculate like it's an every day event). To be honest, overenthusiastic posts bug me as much as overpessimistic posts. Mostly because to me neither is grounded in reality. In spite of that, that's the life of a sports chat board, but at the end of the day those people are fans. I'm okay with fans, fans mature, fans go through phases like that. Haters never mature... that's why this thread was born.... for the haters.



I don't think we need to legislate how to be a fan, or a sports fan here in this forum. I do think we need to put an end to the haters. I have no problem with fans of other teams being here. I have a problem with haters being here. I think we saw this with a very good and classy longhorns fan, who is well liked here and welcome always, and some other fans of the same team that tried to keep it together but then spiraled out of control when the results didn't go their way.



Hyperbole, okay and part of the life of every sports chat group, and yes it's annoying sometimes.



Hate, and negative agenda... not welcome IMHO.



BTW Skyler Halford not only does not suck, he is in the top 1/3 of guards we've had the last 20 years. He's no Jimmer, but he's no Matt Montague either. For goodness sake he was a 1st team JUCO all American but he's on a BYU team loaded with guards and this was his 1st season with us. (juco players tend to blossom in their 2nd years.) My two concerns with Halford are his strength (hopefully he gets stronger this summer, like good soon to be seniors do) and how his minutes are affecting a player such as Frank Bartley, who has a very high ceiling, but needs court time to figure it all out. That said, I still like Halford.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqZX_3UIMvk

Craig, spot on. Call your shot, but put your name on what you say and own it. It's healthy to be wrong and even healthier to admit it. Two people are almost always going to think differently, and that is great. This forum wouldn't exist if we all thought the same thing about everything. How boring that would be.



It is possible to disagree with people and not resort to personal attacks (ad hominen). A lot of times there is middle ground to be had in any discussion.



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Great post by CraigO. And I appreciated the Halford highlights.

Rose and co need that Halford and the Carlino that delivers points and assists (a la last year's NIT) to be successful today. Here we go!



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I like the idea that if someone does not like a post/poster that they can give a thumbs down. If a poster gets 10 in a day (or what ever number) then he gets a one day ban automatically. I'm sure that can get programmed.

scott715 wrote:
I like the idea that if someone does not like a post/poster that they can give a thumbs down. If a poster gets 10 in a day (or what ever number) then he gets a one day ban automatically. I'm sure that can get programmed.

Not a good idea. Will result in unintended consequences.



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Cougarbib wrote:

I like the idea that if someone does not like a post/poster that they can give a thumbs down. If a poster gets 10 in a day (or what ever number) then he gets a one day ban automatically. I'm sure that can get programmed.

Not a good idea. Will result in unintended consequences.



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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: (There's no thumbs down emoticon.)



Consequences, like what?

Cougs_Rule wrote:

scott715 wrote:
I like the idea that if someone does not like a post/poster that they can give a thumbs down. If a poster gets 10 in a day (or what ever number) then he gets a one day ban automatically. I'm sure that can get programmed.

Not a good idea. Will result in unintended consequences.



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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: (There's no thumbs down emoticon.)



Consequences, like what?

Bib gets banned every other day ;)

craigoscarson wrote:

Cougarbib wrote:

I like the idea that if someone does not like a post/poster that they can give a thumbs down. If a poster gets 10 in a day (or what ever number) then he gets a one day ban automatically. I'm sure that can get programmed.

Not a good idea. Will result in unintended consequences.



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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: (There's no thumbs down emoticon.)



Consequences, like what?

Bib gets banned every other day ;)

I would recruit 10 friends to sign up and come on daily and thumbs down posters who bash players and coaches.



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Cougarbib wrote:

Cougs_Rule wrote:

scott715 wrote:
I like the idea that if someone does not like a post/poster that they can give a thumbs down. If a poster gets 10 in a day (or what ever number) then he gets a one day ban automatically. I'm sure that can get programmed.

Not a good idea. Will result in unintended consequences.



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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: (There's no thumbs down emoticon.)



Consequences, like what?

Bib gets banned every other day ;)

I would recruit 10 friends to sign up and come on daily and thumbs down posters who bash players and coaches.



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Looks like it hasn't been programmed yet, darnit. ;-)