Thoughts on the Honor Code

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V31N04_101.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone else ever seen this article, about how BYU arrived at the current Honor Code? I don't know how accurate the portrayal is, but I'm really having some issues with some of it.



I think the Honor Code - specifically the dress and grooming standards - can use some updating from what Pres. Wilkinson thought was correct. I think there are some allowances that can be made then are currently available. It seems the standards of being well kempt would be more appropriate than the specificity guys like Wilkinson were looking for.



Thoughts?

I was kind of thinking this topic would be more at home in the Lounge.

Wow, I always thought the Honor Code was heaven inspired, but this makes it seem like it was the zealous wish of a tyrant.



I wish more people in the church followed Joseph's teachings that people should be taught correct principles and then govern themselves although I admit that I find myself having that same trouble with my kids. I want to force them to make correct decisions, but when I step back and think about it they need to be able to exercise their own agency. Remember, Satan's plan was to take away agency.



Still, with all that said, I had a great time at Ricks College / BYU-Idaho and never had a problem with the Honor Code although I never felt that it was forced upon me and I lived it willingly.

byufan4ever wrote:
Wow, I always thought the Honor Code was heaven inspired, but this makes it seem like it was the zealous wish of a tyrant.



I wish more people in the church followed Joseph's teachings that people should be taught correct principles and then govern themselves although I admit that I find myself having that same trouble with my kids. I want to force them to make correct decisions, but when I step back and think about it they need to be able to exercise their own agency. Remember, Satan's plan was to take away agency.



Still, with all that said, I had a great time at Ricks College / BYU-Idaho and never had a problem with the Honor Code although I never felt that it was forced upon me and I lived it willingly.

Yeah, this article is definitely biased against Wilkinson and other administrators at the time. Stooping to almost Gestapo like tactics.



So it'd be interesting to see what the other side thought. Maybe I'll ask my parents, they were at BYU in the 60s.

I've always hated the Honor Code and have not been hesitant to say so. Nothing has changed my stance on that - even when Bronco tries to sell it as a "strength" in recruiting.

I like the idea of the dress and grooming standards defining something of a unified, professional appearance to the world. Could it be updated? Yes, Should it be, I think it should be looked at and tweaked often.

Another article about



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/595050565/BYUs-honor-code.html?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simple fact is this if you don't like the honor code don't go to BYU that's simple..It's frustrating to hear people at BYU complain about it.. If you did not like it then you should have never asked to get in. Iam a convert but been a BYU fan my whole life and I always loved the fact that BYU has standards.

Given that the majority of Academia is a cesspool of liberalism, "progressive-ism" and party-hardy-ing, I still like the HC. It is needed, maybe even a necessary evil of "enforcement." THe HC isnt that hard to comply with and more and more sets BYU apart.

Cougs_Rule wrote:
Given that the majority of Academia is a cesspool of liberalism, "progressive-ism" and party-hardy-ing, I still like the HC. It is needed, maybe even a necessary evil of "enforcement." THe HC isnt that hard to comply with and more and more sets BYU apart.

Well said.

BYUBALLIN wrote:
Simple fact is this if you don't like the honor code don't go to BYU that's simple..It's frustrating to hear people at BYU complain about it.. If you did not like it then you should have never asked to get in. Iam a convert but been a BYU fan my whole life and I always loved the fact that BYU has standards.

I agree with the portion above that says:

Simple fact is this if you don't like the honor code don't go to BYU that's simple..It's frustrating to hear people at BYU complain about it..

Kids know what they are getting into, it is not as if they are blindsided.....especially with the internet, any kid know what they are committing to abided by.



On the other hand I believe the HC should be updated from time to time. Times changes and so do fashion trends etc (not discussing modesty). I am not saying the HC should change surrounding morality or the word of wisdom. What is different between a mustache and a goatee? Is hair just over the ear that bad?



Not a big deal to me, but I have heard stories of the testing centers not allowing students to take tests due to being unshaven or the hair is a tad long. To me that is a bit silly. I guess it could be worse and skinny jeans could be banned (ie BYU-I).....I hope no football recruits are turned off by any BYU-I confusion about their inability to wear skinny jeans. ;) Personally I believe there are some women that should not wear skinny jeans so BYU-I is saving them some embarrassment.



You are right students know what they commit to, but some rules are just silly (again nothing pertaining to ethics, morality, WoW).

Although I appreciate and understand the need for standards, I think BYU Pres. Ernest Wilkinson reacted with too heavy a hand.



Here's my hypothetical. Let's pretend Joseph Smith was the Prophet of the Church during Pres. Wilkinson's tenure. Given the exact came circumstances, Pres. Wilkinson sat down with Joseph Smith and proposed the Honor Code as he developed it - along with all the inquiries, penalties, and punishments.



During the conversation Joseph would have remind Pres. Wilkinson of the following principles:



“I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

and -

We should not, according to the scriptures, need to be commanded in all things. (D&C 58:25)



I personally do not think Joseph Smith would have implemented and enforced the Honor Code as Pres. Wilkinson did. IMHO.

Ddawg wrote:
Although I appreciate and understand the need for standards, I think BYU Pres. Ernest Wilkinson reacted with too heavy a hand.



Here's my hypothetical. Let's pretend Joseph Smith was the Prophet of the Church during Pres. Wilkinson's tenure. Given the exact came circumstances, Pres. Wilkinson sat down with Joseph Smith and proposed the Honor Code as he developed it - along with all the inquiries, penalties, and punishments.



During the conversation Joseph would have remind Pres. Wilkinson of the following principles:



“I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

and -

We should not, according to the scriptures, need to be commanded in all things. (D&C 58:25)



I personally do not think Joseph Smith would have implemented and enforced the Honor Code as Pres. Wilkinson did. IMHO.

And yet you can't be a bishop and have a beard today.

Having attended BYU in the 60's, I guess I'll weigh in. I haven't read the article yet. But I can share some experiences. Pres. Wilkinson was highly esteemed and admired by every single student I ran into. I never once heard a single bad thing about him. He would get standing O's when he would do a bazillion push ups during halftime of basketball games. He appeared in cameo rolls in some student produced movies - as a janitor one time, IIRC.



And the honor code has undergone some changes. My experiences go back to when the men were not allowed to wear blue jeans - had to be slacks and a button down shirt. Women were required to wear dresses. I never heard a complaint. Not once. So, from that baseline, the HC has changed; maybe not as fast as some would want it to. But the campus has to have diversity - not as a requirement but as a fact of life. 30,000 students are not going to be of the same mind on every issue. If we were all alike, every single guy on campus would have wanted to date the girl I was dating.



The key, in my mind, is to be tolerant of others' opinions. But at the same time you need to fight the urge to kick the crap out of the prick who thinks his opinion is the only right one and everyone should cow-tow to what he wants. Like was stated earlier, if we didn't like it, we went elsewhere.

My opinion is that the honor code should be based on eternal principles...Morality, WoW, Honesty, Modesty, etc.



Grooming standards are not really eternal principles. How much facial hair or the length or your hair is appropriate for the Celestial Kingdom? Why is Brigham Young's hair long on his statue, and when did it become an issue to have facial hair? Heber J. Grant didn't seem to think it was an issue. Obviously these are not eternal issues, but change with the times. I would not regulate those things, even though I think skinny jeans on anyone are an abomination. In sum, lighten up a little, but keep BYU a special place founded on eternal principles.

hawkwing wrote:

Although I appreciate and understand the need for standards, I think BYU Pres. Ernest Wilkinson reacted with too heavy a hand.



Here's my hypothetical. Let's pretend Joseph Smith was the Prophet of the Church during Pres. Wilkinson's tenure. Given the exact came circumstances, Pres. Wilkinson sat down with Joseph Smith and proposed the Honor Code as he developed it - along with all the inquiries, penalties, and punishments.



During the conversation Joseph would have remind Pres. Wilkinson of the following principles:



“I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

and -

We should not, according to the scriptures, need to be commanded in all things. (D&C 58:25)



I personally do not think Joseph Smith would have implemented and enforced the Honor Code as Pres. Wilkinson did. IMHO.

And yet you can't be a bishop and have a beard today.

Isn't that interesting? Every prophet after Joseph Smith, from 1847 to 1951 (104 years) wore a beard. Yet, from 1951 to present, none of the prophets have grown a beard or mustache.



Do beards or mustaches interfere with spirituality? I don't think so. A healthy beard didn't affect Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F. Smith, Heber J. Grant, or George Albert Smith.



At the risk of being labeled a rebellious malcontent, I do think it's time to make looking inside the vessel more important than outside.

Cougarfan87 wrote:
My opinion is that the honor code should be based on eternal principles...Morality, WoW, Honesty, Modesty, etc.



Grooming standards are not really eternal principles. How much facial hair or the length or your hair is appropriate for the Celestial Kingdom? Why is Brigham Young's hair long on his statue, and when did it become an issue to have facial hair? Heber J. Grant didn't seem to think it was an issue. Obviously these are not eternal issues, but change with the times. I would not regulate those things, even though I think skinny jeans on anyone are an abomination. In sum, lighten up a little, but keep BYU a special place founded on eternal principles.

Wut he said. Bingo!

This thread badly needs a point to be made:



Rules with consequences DO NOT take away agency!



Yes, we should not be commanded in all things. Yes, Joseph Smith said that his people governed themselves according to his teachings. But if having rules with consequences is a bad thing, why do we have commandments? Why do we have laws, for that matter? Why not just a bunch of advice and suggestions?



There are two reasons why.



First, rules with consequences can help you learn the principle before you develop a behavior that will lead to worse consequences. I learned not to play in the street before I got hit by a car, because I got in trouble if I played in the street. In the eternal perspective, we're all just kids learning not to play in the street.



Second, rules with consequences protect those that obey the rules from those that don't. If my brother gets his stereo taken away for playing loud music after bedtime, that benefits me, too, because I get to sleep when I need to.



I went to BYU because of the Honor Code. I could have gone to MIT, Stanford, or Caltech, which many tried to convince me to do because it would allegedly have been better for my chosen career plan. But I wanted an environment free of the distractions you would get without the Honor Code; the obvious ones being living in close quarters with people who like to have loud, late, parties or a roommate who is not shy about their fornication. I also didn't want to have to look at the sky and hum my favorite hymn every time I walked across campus.



Now, do some of the dress and grooming rules need some updates? Possibly. But ditching the Honor Code or even just the consequences of the Honor Code results in a BYU that's just like any other school, except that you can take Book of Mormon classes for credit. And that's not somewhere I would have cared to go.



The Church sees enough value in providing an institution of higher learning that is different from every other that it uses tithing funds to support it. If we're okay with requiring temple recommends for entering a tithing-supported house of worship, why is it any different to require Honor Code adherence for entering a tithing supported house of higher learning?

Sorry to comment again. I did some cursory scanning of the first 12 pages of that article. It is filled with quotes and actual statements that seem to be inserted and directed so as to support the point the author wants to make. As a student, I was never aware of any of this. But it is blatently obvious that the author of this piece has a point to make and spares no effort to ensure that his point is well documented, no matter how much he twists and takes out of context.



I get the feeling that if someone once asked Joseph Smith how he was doing on a particular day and Joesph responded, "I feel very gay today," this author could write an article proving that Joseph was a homosexual.

1967cougar wrote:
Sorry to comment again. I did some cursory scanning of the first 12 pages of that article. It is filled with quotes and actual statements that seem to be inserted and directed so as to support the point the author wants to make. As a student, I was never aware of any of this. But it is blatently obvious that the author of this piece has a point to make and spares no effort to ensure that his point is well documented, no matter how much he twists and takes out of context.



I get the feeling that if someone once asked Joseph Smith how he was doing on a particular day and Joesph responded, "I feel very gay today," this author could write an article proving that Joseph was a homosexual.

I think your conclusion is incorrect. Are you aware of the fact that the Wilkinson quad was designed to make protests difficult to hold on campus, and easy to break up if they occurred at BYU? That's an interesting way to design a campus quad eh?



That said, I do not advocate large, out of control riotous student rally's. But, I do think Ernest Wilkinson over-reacted to events of his time - which have passed and gone.



I think it's interesting that you formed a strong opinion, and posted it prior to reading any of the article. Certainly the author had a point to make. Most authors do. I have no problem with an opinion if it is based on research, fact, and documentation. This article is heavily documented. In no way do I think the article denigrates Ernest Wilkinson. He was a fine man, who over-reacted.