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Thoughts on the Honor Code

by SpiffCoug · 8/14/2014

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W
Wolverine
Ddawg wrote:
Sorry to comment again. I did some cursory scanning of the first 12 pages of that article. It is filled with quotes and actual statements that seem to be inserted and directed so as to support the point the author wants to make. As a student, I was never aware of any of this. But it is blatently obvious that the author of this piece has a point to make and spares no effort to ensure that his point is well documented, no matter how much he twists and takes out of context.



I get the feeling that if someone once asked Joseph Smith how he was doing on a particular day and Joesph responded, "I feel very gay today," this author could write an article proving that Joseph was a homosexual.


I think your conclusion is incorrect. Are you aware of the fact that the Wilkinson quad was designed to make protests difficult to hold on campus, and easy to break up if they occurred at BYU? That's an interesting way to design a campus quad eh?



That said, I do not advocate large, out of control riotous student rally's. But, I do think Ernest Wilkinson over-reacted to events of his time - which have passed and gone.



I think it's interesting that you formed a strong opinion, and posted it prior to reading any of the article. Certainly the author had a point to make. Most authors do. I have no problem with an opinion if it is based on research, fact, and documentation. This article is heavily documented. In no way do I think the article denigrates Ernest Wilkinson. He was a fine man, who over-reacted.

I read the entire article and agree with you to a point on the author's intent and approach with regards to the article. I'm not sure I agree with your opinion that Pres. Wilkinson's methods were all about "over-reaction". I am more of the mind that it was along the lines of his core philosophical beliefs ingrained over 60 plus years caught in the crosswinds of a rapidly changing society that was chaotic at best. Many men of that generation were conflicted and concerned with the social and moral upheaval of the 60's and IMO their concerns on many levels have been validated over the past 50 years. With 50 years of hindsight and reflection, maybe Pres. Wilkinson would have approached things differently, but then again that would be the case for most of us with regards to most of the things we experience in life, and where would any of the fun and adventure be in that ;) ?
S
Schmoe
There are many places where the LDS faithful are asked to go above and beyond the minimum, including missions, bishoprics and higher callings, and at church schools. I don't think that this is done by mere accident or coincidence, and I don't think it's hard to understand that there are things beyond the bare minimum that can lend themselves to creating a culture that is inviting to the spirit and edifying to others around you.



Could the honor code use a tweak every once in a while? Sure, but to only hold students to the most minimum standard would take away from the culture and feeling at BYU, which is important whether some would like to admit it or not.
B
BoiseBYU
Having an honor code is a wonderful thing. Making sure the honor code is the right one is quite another. There is nothing sacrosanct about the dress standards in the current honor code and they might stand for some review. How we enforce it might also stand some consideration. The last thing I want is for BYU to be known as being about free agency and how to enforce it. While we are talking honor codes, I've never understand why BYUI's honor code is stricter than BYU's, but it is. Thoughts on that?
C
Cougarfan87
hawkwing wrote:
Although I appreciate and understand the need for standards, I think BYU Pres. Ernest Wilkinson reacted with too heavy a hand.



Here's my hypothetical. Let's pretend Joseph Smith was the Prophet of the Church during Pres. Wilkinson's tenure. Given the exact came circumstances, Pres. Wilkinson sat down with Joseph Smith and proposed the Honor Code as he developed it - along with all the inquiries, penalties, and punishments.



During the conversation Joseph would have remind Pres. Wilkinson of the following principles:



“I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

and -

We should not, according to the scriptures, need to be commanded in all things. (D&C 58:25)



I personally do not think Joseph Smith would have implemented and enforced the Honor Code as Pres. Wilkinson did. IMHO.


And yet you can't be a bishop and have a beard today.


I don't think that is quite true. I knew a man who served as Bishop, and he had a goatee. I believe he has had it forever. Someone else (it may have been him) told me that his Stake President also had a full beard. As far as I can tell, the requirement to be clean shaven is an unspoken tradition, not a rule (certainly not in either handbook). This is similar to wearing white shirts on Sunday, and wearing a suit coat. I will say, I do feel somewhat compelled to be clean-shaven on Sundays, wear white shirts to church, and wear a suit coat, but I don't mind letting my whiskers grow out a few days during the week, mostly because it is a pain to shave.



I also think most on this board are in violent agreement that the honor code should remain. I don't think anyone is arguing we should do away with requirements to use clean language, be honest, keep the word of wisdom, dress modestly, and obey the law of chastity, etc. I would be extremely opposed to removing those requirements, because they are based on eternal gospel principles, not the changing of style over time. I wouldn't mind if they started allowing facial hair that is neat in appearance (meaning if you are going to try and pull a beard off, you have to be able to actually grow one--it shouldn't look like a partially deforested landscape). Of course, when you go to BYU, you agree to keep the honor code as it is written, not as you think it should be. I recall Elder Bednar once saying that when kids at BYU-Idaho would complain to him about the honor code, he would tell them they need to keep the commitment they were not forced to sign when they came there, or he would do all he could to help them transfer to another school. There is value in keeping our commitments, whether we think they are all necessary or not.
N
nuk13
I agree with the guy that said this should be in the lounge. I thought it was going to be about the suspended players.



During my stay at BYU it came to me that hair (at that time!) was easy to grow back and it didn't bother me much after that. Mine would go past my ears sometimes but I'd get it cut. I never have gotten much past 3 wks with a beard.



There absolutely should be a moral, church standard code. I just don't see now nor did I then see what hair or beards have to do with that. I too wondered how come many of the presidents and general authorities wore beards and then all of a sudden it became a sin. I remember a wealthy couple who I don't think were members, donated lots of $$$ to the school because we all looked clean cut to them. The drug and hippie movements, for the most part had long hair. Maybe that had something to do with it. I agreed and agree that mini skirts were wrong (but it was sad to see them go).



Pres. Wilkinson, while having much to be admired, seemed dictatorial to me. I don't know how popular he was. I did hear negatives about him. I liked Pres. Clark at Ricks more. He was more personable.
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S
Schmoe
nuk13 wrote:
I too wondered how come many of the presidents and general authorities wore beards and then all of a sudden it became a sin.


With all due respect, I think strawman hyperbole like this detracts from the conversation.
G
Guest
I don't believe the argument that Brigham Young and other early leaders had a beard so BYU should allow them now is valid, unless you're also willing to go back to wearing ankle to wrist garments.
G
Gunk
The HC needs to be updated. Fine with modesty and standards that uphold such, but hair length, facial hair, piercings, etc. are not sins. If you are worthy to go to the temple, you should be able to attend BYU. As it stands now, I can go to the temple with a beard but could not attend BYU. Like it or not, the church is a bit fixated with the appearance of righteousness.



Case in point, I grew a beard at the beginning of the year. While in the temple I was asked whether I was a veil worker, a more senior temple worker came up and said, "Don't bother asking him. He can't work in the temple because he has a beard."



Think about that. A beard is hair, something my body naturally produces. I can't control the fact my body grows hair. Without the invention of razor blades I would have a foot long beard. A beard is not like a tattoo where someone makes a conscious decision to have. I can have a tattoo and be a temple worker but not have a beard. That doesn't makes sense.



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H
HoosierCougar
I had a Stake President on my mission with a full beard.



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M
Mars
BoiseBYU wrote:
I've never understand why BYUI's honor code is stricter than BYU's, but it is. Thoughts on that?

Easy: BYU-Idaho students are less righteous, so their rules must be more harsh.



:whistle:
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C
Cougarbib
I thought the honor code was ridiculous when I arrived in 1969 - wanna be rock star - rebel without a clue. Got my MBA at The U and loved the freedom there. It was almost impossible to get in trouble there - almost anything goes.



Then I started to realize some things. Especially this:



BYU, other than being blessed with my family, was the best thing that ever happened to me. It just took me a while to figure that out.



I have five kids - did not send any to the U. I do not hate The U. It was good for me in many ways, too.



Y beats U.



I agree with what Cougs Rule posted and the convert to the Church comments.



I advanced to the C- Suite in 3 different multi-billion $ corporations. My career skyrocketed when I heeded advice from a mentor - Not LDS - Not in Utah - and started looking like a BYU graduate instead of a U graduate.



This was not Utah. Not Provo. Not LDS at all. Southern California, Chicago, Ventura County, and Hawaii.



I was fortunate that a mentor took me aside and let me know that my beard and long hair were fine for staff jobs - but suggested I take a look at the folks in the executive suite. Not even a moustache in sight.



Yes times changed. My boss in Hawaii had a funny looking growth under his lower lip. His boss, The Chairman, did not.



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N
NDCougar
Bibs,



I agree about being professional, but that is not necessarily a BYU thing it is a corporate thing. You need to understand your environment. I work in NYC and dress accordingly, I could look out of place very "preppy" when in TX, UT or the Midwest. Likewise you can tell non-NY'ers when they come through town on business. Neither is bad, it is just a matter of dress. The rule of thumb is you should dress for the job you want not the job you have.



That being said in NYC there is a huge difference in dress between HF/PE/Wall Street folks and more artistic guys (marketing, media, music etc). All dress differently, if someone tried dress like me and showed up to a music label he would be deemed as a "suit"......not in a good way. Likewise if a hipster showed up in my office they would not be viewed positively. Know your environment.



We are talking about the HC and kids that are 18-24 not corporate environments. BYU students need to know their environment, aka dress accordingly. BYU needs to know its environment and understand these are young kids and some extra scruff after hours of studying for finals is not major transgression. If BYU really wants to dictate what kids wear and do they should have strict rules, aka have uniform, vs leave it in the hands of others to judge what is meant by the rules......I may have a different interpretation of a rule than you pertaining to the wording.



Personally I think some BYU (especially BYU-I) go overboard. The last two paragraphs really highlight this (I know it is BYU-I but it can still fit): http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700205125/The-skinny-on-a-supposed-jeans-ban-at-BYU-Idaho.html?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Anyone know why the difference in the standards at BYU-I and BYU standards?



I am all for rules and having standards. IMO these need to be reviewed yearly and need to be very clear and not left in the hands of potential overly zealous people to oversee the process. There is no reason for kids to hounded on for minor things and to focus on the positive and really work on what is important pertaining to the mission of the university not debate what is facial hair and what is not.
C
CrimsonCoug
A few thoughts/observations:

- On Wilkinson: I think there was a pretty big split in perception between the faculty and the students. While I was attending the Y in the mid-90s, my uncle, long-time faculty in the science dpt, told me an interesting anecdote. I have the details fuzzy after 20 years (!!!), and this is second hand, so take it fwiw: My uncle was good friends with an administrator (dean/assoc dean) of one of the departments in the MARB who had retired shortly after the Wilkinson era. The admin got a knock at his home one day by someone doing a book on EL Wilkenson. The admin coldly said he didn't want to talk. Trying to get a response to at least one question, the author asked, "Would you consider Wilkenson to have been a successful president." The dean's response: "If you count success by the number of bodies bruised and bleeding on the field of battle, then yes, Wilkenson was a success" and politely shut the door. It was a turbulent time, and ELW didn't take any guff from anyone.

On the other hand, my Father in Law, who also attended at the time, loved him. I think young people probably appreciated someone willing to take a hard line on standards and expectations.



Still, I was visiting campus last week and had a conversation with a faculty member who had been a good mentor to me in the day. He was frustrated by the overly "safe" decisions some BYU administrators had made that affected the membership of the church in Palestine (yes, there are Palestinian members). He commented that sometimes it seems that BYU is trying to "out-brethren the Brethren."



We are commanded in scripture to "avoid the very appearance of evil" but also to not "look[...] beyond the mark." Clearly there's a tough balance there where can smart, faithful saints can disagree.



- On beards: Yes, Brigham Young couldn't be admitted to the testing center at his own universities. But that assumes Brigham Young from the 1800s would still dress the same today. Or Jesus for that matter. Both of them, and indeed all of the prophets, dressed in a way appropriate for their day. Personally, I don't think Brigham Young would wear a beard today.



- On respectability: So why did Joseph not have a beard, then Brigham not have a beard before he had one, and every other prophet through the 1950s not have a beard? Because, I believe, they were the prophet for their time and needed to present themselves in a respectable way. Despite our social tropes of "don't judge a book by its cover", I think it's pretty clear that God does care that His church and His disciples are respectable and dress respectably. The outward vessel should honor and reflect the inward vessel. The tough challenge becomes, 'respectable to whom and in what situations?' But I think the standards currently settled on follow the principle of being respectable and wholesome to most wholesome people. But there may be other standards or tweaks to those standards that also follow that principle.



- On skinny jeans at BYU-I: This seems to be the product of a (over?)-zealous director of the testing center. Still, the rule he's trying to follow is right there in the HC of both the Provo and Rexburg campuses, admonishing against clothing that is "form-fitting". Kinda hard to argue that skinny jeans--which now with modern materials and manufacturing aren't too far off of yoga pants--aren't form-fitting. But by the same standard, so are many of the shirts that women (and some men) also wear; if your bustline leaves little to the imagination, isn't that formfitting? This part of the rule has always bugged me, even from my time at BYU. Either have that part in the code, and enforce it, or don't have it in there. I'm OK either way, but just be consistent...and respectable and wholesome.



Whoa! Long post! Sorry!
N
nuk13
NDCougar wrote:
Bibs,



I agree about being professional, but that is not necessarily a BYU thing it is a corporate thing. You need to understand your environment. I work in NYC and dress accordingly, I could look out of place very "preppy" when in TX, UT or the Midwest. Likewise you can tell non-NY'ers when they come through town on business. Neither is bad, it is just a matter of dress. The rule of thumb is you should dress for the job you want not the job you have.



That being said in NYC there is a huge difference in dress between HF/PE/Wall Street folks and more artistic guys (marketing, media, music etc). All dress differently, if someone tried dress like me and showed up to a music label he would be deemed as a "suit"......not in a good way. Likewise if a hipster showed up in my office they would not be viewed positively. Know your environment.







We are talking about the HC and kids that are 18-24 not corporate environments. BYU students need to know their environment, aka dress accordingly. BYU needs to know its environment and understand these are young kids and some extra scruff after hours of studying for finals is not major transgression. If BYU really wants to dictate what kids wear and do they should have strict rules, aka have uniform, vs leave it in the hands of others to judge what is meant by the rules......I may have a different interpretation of a rule than you pertaining to the wording.



Personally I think some BYU (especially BYU-I) go overboard. The last two paragraphs really highlight this (I know it is BYU-I but it can still fit): http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700205125/The-skinny-on-a-supposed-jeans-ban-at-BYU-Idaho.html?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Anyone know why the difference in the standards at BYU-I and BYU standards?



I am all for rules and having standards. IMO these need to be reviewed yearly and need to be very clear and not left in the hands of potential overly zealous people to oversee the process. There is no reason for kids to hounded on for minor things and to focus on the positive and really work on what is important pertaining to the mission of the university not debate what is facial hair and what is not.


Agreed.
R
Rico
I agree with the gist of what CrimsonCoug says. One relevant point that no one seems to be discussing is the issue of enforcement. Most of us probably agree that a well-trimmed beard or mustache can present a well-groomed look. But if well-trimmed facial hair becomes the new standard, how do you enforce it? Such a standard becomes a lot more subjective than the simple no-beard rule, and would probably create a lot more enforcement problems than it solves.



Also, I agree with the point about good grooming not being so much a matter of sin, but about presentability. If you're going to BYU, people assume you're LDS and you become a de facto representative of the religion. As such, BYU wants you to look good. I don't think anyone is arguing that wearing facial hair is a sin if you haven't signed an honor code prohibiting you from doing so.
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C
Cougs_Rule
At first, I thought this thread would be fairly tolerable. But, it has definitely run its course and turned into a forum for people who want to showcase their "congruency" instead of hypocrisy regarding their indifference and/or defiance to those other "people" who want to control their minds and force their compliance.

I can't wait to talk just about football.

See you tonight… In my speedo! Just to show people that they can't control the way I think and behave.
S
SpiffCoug
One thing I think is worth mentioning, is that a lot of newcomers who aren't of the LDS faith (and even those who are LDS) who are not familiar with the HC lifestyle seem to really struggle with it before camp starts.



Coaches are extremely limited in their contact with players before camp starts. So guys like Blackmon who are entering an entirely new world simply don't have the opportunity to come under the guiding wing of Coach Mendenhall and the staff.



They think they understand the HC, but if it's an alien concept to you, then you don't full appreciate all that it means when you first step on campus. And coaches aren't able to guide these guys.



So perhaps this where the work/changes can come? Maybe Bronco needs to do a better job of assigning mentors earlier to these players. And maybe to a certain extent, split them up? A group of people unfamiliar with the HC aren't going to be as successful living the HC if they're trying to mentor each other.



Some changes I wouldn't mind see are almost all grooming & dress related. I think the bans on drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, et al can stay. They are well within bounds of LDS doctrine and should remain.



But the grooming and dress can be updated. Wilkinson and others were very much (and rightfully) concerned with preventing the counter-culture of the 60s from taking root in BYU. The HC was their method of accomplishing that. Mission accomplished. I think we can allow for more freedom to dress and have hairstyles, accessories as students wish. Have a standard that emphasizes cleanliness and being well groomed. Having a well kempt beard should be allowed.



This might help newcomers in their adjustments.
D
Ddawg
Ok, so, I can't wear a beard at BYU. Fine. At least I can wear my skinny jeans. I won't be seen in public wearing anything other than skinny jeans and flip-flops. Skinny jeans today - a beard tomorrow. ;)
B
BoiseBYU
Ddawg wrote:
Ok, so, I can't wear a beard at BYU. Fine. At least I can wear my skinny jeans. I won't be seen in public wearing anything other than skinny jeans and flip-flops. Skinny jeans today - a beard tomorrow. ;)

Just don't wear those flip flops at BYUI! ;)
D
Ddawg
BoiseBYU wrote:
Ok, so, I can't wear a beard at BYU. Fine. At least I can wear my skinny jeans. I won't be seen in public wearing anything other than skinny jeans and flip-flops. Skinny jeans today - a beard tomorrow. ;)

Just don't wear those flip flops at BYUI! ;)


True dat! (BTW, I would not be caught dead wearing skinny jeans. Good grief. :bug: )
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