Impact of SD Loss

hawkwing wrote:

Schmoe wrote:

I honestly prefer him to Carlino because KC looks to get others involved and Carlino has only ever cared about getting his own.

I think this may be a little harsh, although Carlino was a shoot-first kind of player (not usually what you want at the point).

I think there is a lot of projecting that goes on with the criticisms of Carlino. He gave no indication that he wasn't anything less than a team player while at BYU. He came off the bench when "demoted" and took it like a champ.



And unless KC keeps up his current assist average, Carlino currently holds the single season record for highest assist average. A guy "looking to get his own" doesn't dole out nearly 5 assists a game. Had we had more shooters last year other than Haws, Carlino would have averaged 6+ assists a game.



Jimmer on the other hand hardly passed the ball...

Jimmer took much smarter shots.

Same shots, Jimmer just made more!

BroncoBot wrote:

Gunk wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
I honestly prefer him to Carlino because KC looks to get others involved and Carlino has only ever cared about getting his own.

I think this may be a little harsh, although Carlino was a shoot-first kind of player (not usually what you want at the point).

I think there is a lot of projecting that goes on with the criticisms of Carlino. He gave no indication that he wasn't anything less than a team player while at BYU. He came off the bench when "demoted" and took it like a champ.



And unless KC keeps up his current assist average, Carlino currently holds the single season record for highest assist average. A guy "looking to get his own" doesn't dole out nearly 5 assists a game. Had we had more shooters last year other than Haws, Carlino would have averaged 6+ assists a game.



Jimmer on the other hand hardly passed the ball...

Jimmer took much smarter shots.

Same shots, Jimmer just made more!

If you're going to take Jimmer range shots, you better make them!

BroncoBot wrote:

Gunk wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
I honestly prefer him to Carlino because KC looks to get others involved and Carlino has only ever cared about getting his own.

I think this may be a little harsh, although Carlino was a shoot-first kind of player (not usually what you want at the point).

I think there is a lot of projecting that goes on with the criticisms of Carlino. He gave no indication that he wasn't anything less than a team player while at BYU. He came off the bench when "demoted" and took it like a champ.



And unless KC keeps up his current assist average, Carlino currently holds the single season record for highest assist average. A guy "looking to get his own" doesn't dole out nearly 5 assists a game. Had we had more shooters last year other than Haws, Carlino would have averaged 6+ assists a game.



Jimmer on the other hand hardly passed the ball...

Jimmer took much smarter shots.

Same shots, Jimmer just made more!

Then it's a smarter shot- right?

ABYUFAN wrote:

hawkwing wrote:

Schmoe wrote:

I honestly prefer him to Carlino because KC looks to get others involved and Carlino has only ever cared about getting his own.

I think this may be a little harsh, although Carlino was a shoot-first kind of player (not usually what you want at the point).

I think there is a lot of projecting that goes on with the criticisms of Carlino. He gave no indication that he wasn't anything less than a team player while at BYU. He came off the bench when "demoted" and took it like a champ.



And unless KC keeps up his current assist average, Carlino currently holds the single season record for highest assist average. A guy "looking to get his own" doesn't dole out nearly 5 assists a game. Had we had more shooters last year other than Haws, Carlino would have averaged 6+ assists a game.



Jimmer on the other hand hardly passed the ball...

Jimmer took much smarter shots.

Same shots, Jimmer just made more!

Then it's a smarter shot- right?

sure, as long as you believe that every missed shot was a bad choice and every made shot was a good decision.



jimmer took plenty of bad shots, but winning is king (as it should be). jimmer won because he had the benefit of a much better supporting cast. besides haws, there wasn't a lot of offensive firepower while carlino was at byu. carlino didn't have an emery or a Davies or a hartsock later on, or even a Chris miles for that matter.

Missed shots mean you're selfish...made shots mean you're a team player.

Gunk wrote:
Missed shots mean you're selfish...made shots mean you're a team player.

I don't think that's an unfair statement, even though you said it in jest.



Rather, if you have a high percentage of makes, taking the shot is not selfish, but if you have a low % it is.

Carlino's highest shot percentage year at BYU is equal with Jimmer's lowest (as a freshman), the same is true for 3-point percentage. But in those years, Jimmer shot 5.8 times a game (3.7 of those from three point land) while Carlino shot 10.5 times a game (4.6 of those from three point land). Not that either is necessarily bad, I just thought it might need a mention when comparing the two.

Schmoe wrote:
Carlino's highest shot percentage year at BYU is equal with Jimmer's lowest (as a freshman), the same is true for 3-point percentage. But in those years, Jimmer shot 5.8 times a game (3.7 of those from three point land) while Carlino shot 10.5 times a game (4.6 of those from three point land). Not that either is necessarily bad, I just thought it might need a mention when comparing the two.

Jimmer's freshman year he was a team with Cummard and Plaisted. Two players that went on to play professional hoops. Tavernari was pretty solid that year as well. Cummard was MWC co-MVP at the time.



Carlino last season played with Haws (great player), Austin at center, a revolving door at the 2, and a 4 that fancies themselves a PG. Someone had to take shots other than Haws.



The idea Carlino took shots out of selfishness is ludicrous. Carlino also has Jimmer beat in just about every assists category and season standings.

Gunk wrote:

Carlino's highest shot percentage year at BYU is equal with Jimmer's lowest (as a freshman), the same is true for 3-point percentage. But in those years, Jimmer shot 5.8 times a game (3.7 of those from three point land) while Carlino shot 10.5 times a game (4.6 of those from three point land). Not that either is necessarily bad, I just thought it might need a mention when comparing the two.

Jimmer's freshman year he was a team with Cummard and Plaisted. Two players that went on to play professional hoops. Tavernari was pretty solid that year as well. Cummard was MWC co-MVP at the time.



Carlino last season played with Haws (great player), Austin at center, a revolving door at the 2, and a 4 that fancies themselves a PG. Someone had to take shots other than Haws.

Did you conveniently or genuinely forget about Mika?



Also, Carlino took virtually twice as many threes as Haws, the second leading three shooter on the team, but had a 3pt% that was significantly lower than Haws and Winder, and lower than a couple other players on the team (I think maybe some of those long threes, and just threes early in the shot clock are the kinds of shots that some fans see as 'selfish'). Winder also seems like a solid 2 to me, and shot lights out last season so it doesn't seem like the 2 should have been a 'revolving door', but I guess that's on Coach Rose.

Schmoe wrote:

Schmoe wrote:
Carlino's highest shot percentage year at BYU is equal with Jimmer's lowest (as a freshman), the same is true for 3-point percentage. But in those years, Jimmer shot 5.8 times a game (3.7 of those from three point land) while Carlino shot 10.5 times a game (4.6 of those from three point land). Not that either is necessarily bad, I just thought it might need a mention when comparing the two.

Jimmer's freshman year he was a team with Cummard and Plaisted. Two players that went on to play professional hoops. Tavernari was pretty solid that year as well. Cummard was MWC co-MVP at the time.



Carlino last season played with Haws (great player), Austin at center, a revolving door at the 2, and a 4 that fancies themselves a PG. Someone had to take shots other than Haws.

Did you conveniently or genuinely forget about Mika?



Also, Carlino took virtually twice as many threes as Haws, the second leading three shooter on the team, but had a 3pt% that was significantly lower than Haws and Winder, and lower than a couple other players on the team (I think maybe some of those long threes, and just threes early in the shot clock are the kinds of shots that some fans see as 'selfish'). Winder also seems like a solid 2 to me, and shot lights out last season so it doesn't seem like the 2 should have been a 'revolving door', but I guess that's on Coach Rose.

I did forget about Mika. That said, Junior Trent Plaisted > Freshman Mika.



The offense did not flow through Mika like it did through Plaisted and Plaisted as a Junior constantly commanded double teams.



I agree the long 3s and early shot-clock shots are the shots fans point to as "selfish," but that's my point. Jimmer took the same exact shots. Only difference is Jimmer made them more. Meanwhile, Carlino has Jimmer beat in every assist stat, the only semi sure way to measure how "selfish" a player really is.



As I mentioned in a previous post, Rose preaches shooting in the shot clock early. He'd rather shoot early than risk turning the ball over. Can't fault Carlino for sticking to the game plan.

Gunk wrote:

Gunk wrote:

Carlino's highest shot percentage year at BYU is equal with Jimmer's lowest (as a freshman), the same is true for 3-point percentage. But in those years, Jimmer shot 5.8 times a game (3.7 of those from three point land) while Carlino shot 10.5 times a game (4.6 of those from three point land). Not that either is necessarily bad, I just thought it might need a mention when comparing the two.

Jimmer's freshman year he was a team with Cummard and Plaisted. Two players that went on to play professional hoops. Tavernari was pretty solid that year as well. Cummard was MWC co-MVP at the time.



Carlino last season played with Haws (great player), Austin at center, a revolving door at the 2, and a 4 that fancies themselves a PG. Someone had to take shots other than Haws.

Did you conveniently or genuinely forget about Mika?



Also, Carlino took virtually twice as many threes as Haws, the second leading three shooter on the team, but had a 3pt% that was significantly lower than Haws and Winder, and lower than a couple other players on the team (I think maybe some of those long threes, and just threes early in the shot clock are the kinds of shots that some fans see as 'selfish'). Winder also seems like a solid 2 to me, and shot lights out last season so it doesn't seem like the 2 should have been a 'revolving door', but I guess that's on Coach Rose.

I did forget about Mika. That said, Junior Trent Plaisted > Freshman Mika.



The offense did not flow through Mika like it did through Plaisted and Plaisted as a Junior constantly commanded double teams.



I agree the long 3s and early shot-clock shots are the shots fans point to as "selfish," but that's my point. Jimmer took the same exact shots. Only difference is Jimmer made them more. Meanwhile, Carlino has Jimmer beat in every assist stat, the only semi sure way to measure how "selfish" a player really is.



As I mentioned in a previous post, Rose preaches shooting in the shot clock early. He'd rather shoot early than risk turning the ball over. Can't fault Carlino for sticking to the game plan.

We have a game plan? ;)

Gunk wrote:

When your best point guard is coming off the bench in a reserve role (and no, I'm not talking about Winder, he is a 2 guard), you are going to have ball security problems. And I've said as much all season. BYU doesn't have a point guard, and should give a serious look to starting Halford in the 4 guard lineup, especially with Fischers down play (He could rotate in as a three headed monster with WInder, he and Halford splitting minutes at the one and two positions). KC can have the ball all he wants on the wings in the 3 point stance, but the days of him bringing the ball down the court should be gone. Get the ball to him on the wing and watch the defense worry about where he is all of the time. WHen he has the ball it's much easier to worry about him. Have him post and make back cuts and come off screens, the same way Haws does. He can't shoot from mid-range on, but he can get the ball in space, take a dribble and draw attention and dish or get to the line.

I agree we do not have a PG. I agree KC is playing out of position.



I wholeheartedly disagree that Halford should start. He's a turnover machine, gets pushed around defense, has less length, and can't get to the rim. I'd take Winder bringing up the ball over Halford any day. In fact, I'd prefer Winder at PG over KC.



Winder ran point for the first half of the season his freshman year and did it against some solid opponents. He was then Carlino's backup.

Well, all that is left after the Santa Clara game is to figure out exactly where you are going to eat your crow. Here, or on the other thread?



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Qman wrote:

When your best point guard is coming off the bench in a reserve role (and no, I'm not talking about Winder, he is a 2 guard), you are going to have ball security problems. And I've said as much all season. BYU doesn't have a point guard, and should give a serious look to starting Halford in the 4 guard lineup, especially with Fischers down play (He could rotate in as a three headed monster with WInder, he and Halford splitting minutes at the one and two positions). KC can have the ball all he wants on the wings in the 3 point stance, but the days of him bringing the ball down the court should be gone. Get the ball to him on the wing and watch the defense worry about where he is all of the time. WHen he has the ball it's much easier to worry about him. Have him post and make back cuts and come off screens, the same way Haws does. He can't shoot from mid-range on, but he can get the ball in space, take a dribble and draw attention and dish or get to the line.

Are you seriously implying that Halford is a point guard? What is the first, most important part of being a point guard? Ball-handling/ball security. Halford is terrible at that.



I think we are going to need to matchup specific for bring the ball up the court. When KC is playing the 4 he will have an advantage but if opponent's 4 is guarding Winder or Fischer they should bring the ball up.

How does that crow taste? ;)



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BlueIsBetter wrote:

BlueIsBetter wrote:
When your best point guard is coming off the bench in a reserve role (and no, I'm not talking about Winder, he is a 2 guard), you are going to have ball security problems. And I've said as much all season. BYU doesn't have a point guard, and should give a serious look to starting Halford in the 4 guard lineup, especially with Fischers down play (He could rotate in as a three headed monster with WInder, he and Halford splitting minutes at the one and two positions). KC can have the ball all he wants on the wings in the 3 point stance, but the days of him bringing the ball down the court should be gone. Get the ball to him on the wing and watch the defense worry about where he is all of the time. WHen he has the ball it's much easier to worry about him. Have him post and make back cuts and come off screens, the same way Haws does. He can't shoot from mid-range on, but he can get the ball in space, take a dribble and draw attention and dish or get to the line.

Are you seriously implying that Halford is a point guard? What is the first, most important part of being a point guard? Ball-handling/ball security. Halford is terrible at that.



I think we are going to need to matchup specific for bring the ball up the court. When KC is playing the 4 he will have an advantage but if opponent's 4 is guarding Winder or Fischer they should bring the ball up.

How does that crow taste? ;)



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You realize you are setting yourself up for a fall, right?



http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/skyler-halford-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Halford's TOV% (expected number of turnovers per 100 possessions)

21.6.



For comparison several other TOV%



KC is a 20.2

Winder is 9.5

Haws is 8.2



Other notable PG's



Pangos 12.0

Delon Wright (sort a of PG) 13.4

Utah State's point guard Darius Perkins 18.7

Weber State-Jeremy Senglin-15.8

Matt Carlino for BYU last year 12.5 -- For Marquette 15.1



The point is that KC and Halford are bad at being point guards. We have to have someone play the position and Coach Rose believes they give us the best chance to win. So I will cheer for them. But I won't pretend that a single game will change my opinion on Halford's ball handling ability.



If Halford plays like he did against Santa Clara for the rest of year, then I will say I was completely wrong about him. I hope he does; we need a viable PG badly.

I'm not saying I'd pick him first in a draft, but he is - quite literally - the closest thing we have to a point guard. Hope he gets the time to improve and gel with the starters. That was the closest to BYU basketball I have seen in more than a year. Uptempo is back, or at least it was against Santa Clara.



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BlueIsBetter wrote:
I'm not saying I'd pick him first in a draft, but he is - quite literally - the closest thing we have to a point guard. Hope he gets the time to improve and gel with the starters. That was the closest to BYU basketball I have seen in more than a year. Uptempo is back, or at least it was against Santa Clara.



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I'll agree the ball flowed to the right places for most the game. Maybe it was Halford, maybe it was the whole team, maybe Santa Clara wasn't good enough to disrupt our game plan.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
I'm not saying I'd pick him first in a draft, but he is - quite literally - the closest thing we have to a point guard. Hope he gets the time to improve and gel with the starters. That was the closest to BYU basketball I have seen in more than a year. Uptempo is back, or at least it was against Santa Clara.



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Uptempo is back? It never really went anywhere. You don't get to be the highest scoring team in the nation and only 45th in shooting percentage by taking your time to bring the ball up the court.



We've scored above 90 points in 11 games. That's almost half of our games.



BTW, last time we played SCU, we beat them 81 to 46 - a larger margin of victory than Saturday's win. I think our performance on Sat had more to do with us having SCU's number than Halford.

I'll take KC every day of the week.

hawkwing wrote:
I'll take KC every day of the week.

Who wouldn't? It isnt either/or. Halford and KC don't play the same position, so there is room for them both (or should be at least). The ball didn't stick like it normally does. And we average a lot of points but not a lot of fast break points. Not like it used to be...



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