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Church Re-evaluating Relationship with BSA

by Cougarfan87 · 7/29/2015

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ABYUFAN
Mars wrote:
One thing I am blown away by is the amount of people critical of the church's support of the BSA. Maybe I have been living under a rock but so many in my ward and others can't wait for the split to happen.

Well, consider the budget split between LDS boys and LDS girls. If you said that the boys got 95%, and the girls 5%, you might be overstating the girls' amount...

I've heard this so many times that I'm questioning my own expereince. I've only lived in one ward for the last twenty years or so, but that's far from the case in my ward. In my ward the YM/YW budget money is split evenly; as I beleive, is the Activity days/ Cub scouts money. If it isn't being done in other wards, they're doing it wrong. That's not a church issue, that's a local leadership issue.
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billbillbillbill
ABYUFAN wrote:
billbillbillbill wrote:
One thing I am blown away by is the amount of people critical of the church's support of the BSA. Maybe I have been living under a rock but so many in my ward and others can't wait for the split to happen.

Well, consider the budget split between LDS boys and LDS girls. If you said that the boys got 95%, and the girls 5%, you might be overstating the girls' amount...

I've heard this so many times that I'm questioning my own expereince. I've only lived in one ward for the last twenty years or so, but that's far from the case in my ward. In my ward the YM/YW budget money is split evenly; as I beleive, is the Activity days/ Cub scouts money. If it isn't being done in other wads, they're doing it wrong. That's not a church issue, that's a local leadership issue.


Same here. I know our ward budget splits it evenly. The ward contributes the same amount for Girls Camp, Oakcrest, Scout Camp, etc.
S
snoscythe
I'm the Scoutmaster in our ward currently. The Deacons/Boy Scouts get more in their activities budget than double what the rest of the youth--Teachers, Priests, Beehives, Mia Maids, and Laurels receive combined for their activities. And that's just for Mutual Nights and Monthly Campouts (does not include our weeklong camp, which the ward partially subsidizes as well).



That's just the official budget, and we are not a very well to-do ward. Once you factor in chartering costs, costs of awards, etc. that come from the ward general budget or are even paid for by the Church offices in SLC, the disparity grows by leaps and bounds. Then there's Friends of Scouting--last year the bishop asked that each household in the ward pay $100 to BSA. When's the last time the bishop asked the ward to contribute money to Friends of Personal Progress?
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ABYUFAN
snoscythe wrote:
I'm the Scoutmaster in our ward currently. The Deacons/Boy Scouts get more in their activities budget than double what the rest of the youth--Teachers, Priests, Beehives, Mia Maids, and Laurels receive combined for their activities. And that's just for Mutual Nights and Monthly Campouts (does not include our weeklong camp, which the ward partially subsidizes as well).



That's just the official budget, and we are not a very well to-do ward. Once you factor in chartering costs, costs of awards, etc. that come from the ward general budget or are even paid for by the Church offices in SLC, the disparity grows by leaps and bounds. Then there's Friends of Scouting--last year the bishop asked that each household in the ward pay $100 to BSA. When's the last time the bishop asked the ward to contribute money to Friends of Personal Progress?

Good for you for being able to swing that, but if you're the scout master and taking more than double of what the others are getting then you're part of the problem ;)



As an aside, I don't see how you can being friends of scouting into the discussion without bringing in all of the contributions to the fundraisers for the Primary and Young Women.



The handbook allows for one fundraiser for each program for the summer camp, but different wards have a different way of interpreting the number "one" and also "summer camp" (for example our ward's Scout awards buget comes from the fundraiser because a majority of the advancement comes as a result of summer camp - another ward that I know of defines the "one" fundraiser to consist of thee seperate parts, occouring on seperte days and seperate locations)



We contribute equally to all even though we have no young women in our family (or primary kids for that matter)



So as a result, the YW YM and Relief Society all have the exact same budget number, and all a bit less than the Primary. And the rest of the ward (Elder's Quorum, High Priests and Sunday School get betwen 20 and 50 bucks each )
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snoscythe
ABYUFAN wrote:
I'm the Scoutmaster in our ward currently. The Deacons/Boy Scouts get more in their activities budget than double what the rest of the youth--Teachers, Priests, Beehives, Mia Maids, and Laurels receive combined for their activities. And that's just for Mutual Nights and Monthly Campouts (does not include our weeklong camp, which the ward partially subsidizes as well).



That's just the official budget, and we are not a very well to-do ward. Once you factor in chartering costs, costs of awards, etc. that come from the ward general budget or are even paid for by the Church offices in SLC, the disparity grows by leaps and bounds. Then there's Friends of Scouting--last year the bishop asked that each household in the ward pay $100 to BSA. When's the last time the bishop asked the ward to contribute money to Friends of Personal Progress?

Good for you for being able to swing that, but if you're the scout master and taking more than double of what the others are getting then you're part of the problem ;)



As an aside, I don't see how you can being friends of scouting into the discussion without bringing in all of the contributions to the fundraisers for the Primary and Young Women.



The handbook allows for one fundraiser for each program for the summer camp, but different wards have a different way of interpreting the number "one" and also "summer camp" (for example our ward's Scout awards buget comes from the fundraiser because a majority of the advancement comes as a result of summer camp - another ward that I know of defines the "one" fundraiser to consist of thee seperate parts, occouring on seperte days and seperate locations)



We contribute equally to all even though we have no young women in our family (or primary kids for that matter)



So as a result, the YW YM and Relief Society all have the exact same budget number, and all a bit less than the Primary. And the rest of the ward (Elder's Quorum, High Priests and Sunday School get betwen 20 and 50 bucks each )




FWIW, I was called as Scoutmaster after the budget for this year was set, and I plan on it being different next year when I do get input--otherwise I wouldn't be on here talking about the inane discrepancy.



Our ward also has fundraisers. This year we had one for the Deacons, one for the teachers, one for the Priests, and one for the Young Women. The Deacons had the most successful fundraiser in terms of net profit, and coincidentally was the only fundraiser that complied with the fundraising standards of Handbook 2.



So that means the Scouting program in the ward got a greater share of our ward budget, Friends of Scouting, and three fundraisers. The Young Women got a paltry contribution from the budget and one fundraiser.



What's more, from my experience, especially in Utah, this is more the norm than the exception.
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ABYUFAN
snoscythe wrote:



What's more, from my experience, especially in Utah, this is more the norm than the exception.


From everything I hear, that is the norm in Utah (which is why I origonally commented the way I did) Maybe California IS a better place to be a Mormon
C
Cougarfan87
ABYUFAN wrote:



What's more, from my experience, especially in Utah, this is more the norm than the exception.


From everything I hear, that is the norm in Utah (which is why I origonally commented the way I did) Maybe California IS a better place to be a Mormon


Or Alabama. If one of the youth groups/primary has a smaller budget, it's only because they did not ask for as much. All of those groups submitted an itemized budget and pretty much got everything they asked for. It was about an even split. Now, EQ and HP got almost nothing. RS had a pretty healthy budget as well. It is all about the local leadership priorities, what people ask for, and what they expend. The YW actually have done a much better job of spending their budget than the YM.



I wonder if the church does withdraw from scouting, will it mean a higher Ward budget since there won't be chartering fees?
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Guest
ABYUFAN wrote:



What's more, from my experience, especially in Utah, this is more the norm than the exception.


From everything I hear, that is the norm in Utah (which is why I origonally commented the way I did) Maybe California IS a better place to be a Mormon


This is definitely not the way it is in our ward in Utah. The young women's / young men's budgets are nearly even.
M
Mars
billbillbillbill wrote:
Mars wrote:
One thing I am blown away by is the amount of people critical of the church's support of the BSA. Maybe I have been living under a rock but so many in my ward and others can't wait for the split to happen.
Well, consider the budget split between LDS boys and LDS girls. If you said that the boys got 95%, and the girls 5%, you might be overstating the girls' amount...
I've heard this so many times that I'm questioning my own expereince. I've only lived in one ward for the last twenty years or so, but that's far from the case in my ward. In my ward the YM/YW budget money is split evenly; as I beleive, is the Activity days/ Cub scouts money. If it isn't being done in other wads, they're doing it wrong. That's not a church issue, that's a local leadership issue.
Same here. I know our ward budget splits it evenly. The ward contributes the same amount for Girls Camp, Oakcrest, Scout Camp, etc.

I live in Utah. Our ward has ZERO budget for the girls' Activity Days, they meet every 2-4 weeks, and sometimes their "fun" activity is cleaning up the church. Meanwhile, the cub scouts meet once every week with an extra meeting every month, and their Blue & Gold Banquet alone has to run near $1000 every single year.
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snoscythe
The next part of our situation is even more appalling, but I realized that this is a fairly rare circumstance, but nevertheless indicative of the problems with Scouts and use of Church funds.



Even with the unreal budget, last year (prior to my calling) the Deacons went $700 over their budget+fundraiser. The stake YM presidency member (who was running our Scouts program until I was called--they were 3 months without a called Scoutmaster) as part of my training told me that the ward budget from Scouts was not to limit us--the way the Scouting program works (according to him) was that the boys planned what they wanted to do, and it was up to the ward to come up with the money to make it happen. Hence the $700 overage--they were essentially giving 12- and 13-year olds a blank check.



One of the stupidest things I have ever encountered in Church administration.
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billbillbillbill
snoscythe wrote:
The next part of our situation is even more appalling, but I realized that this is a fairly rare circumstance, but nevertheless indicative of the problems with Scouts and use of Church funds.



Even with the unreal budget, last year (prior to my calling) the Deacons went $700 over their budget+fundraiser. The stake YM presidency member (who was running our Scouts program until I was called--they were 3 months without a called Scoutmaster) as part of my training told me that the ward budget from Scouts was not to limit us--the way the Scouting program works (according to him) was that the boys planned what they wanted to do, and it was up to the ward to come up with the money to make it happen. Hence the $700 overage--they were essentially giving 12- and 13-year olds a blank check.



One of the stupidest things I have ever encountered in Church administration.


Wow, I'm a scoutmaster now and when I ask the boys where they want to camp, their first answer is Florida Sea Base every time. Guess I gotta move to that ward to get to do something like that. :D



After camp and awards, I am left with not much in the way of budget but we have a pretty good time and make do.
J
jvquarterback
I was just at scout camp last night. On the way up the member of the stake presidency (who's on the northern california bsa board) and I figured the chartering cost alone for the church in the the US is ~$10.5M. Our stake (and the 9 others in the area) contributes $5-8K for maintanence of our local scout camps (the stake also contribute to church camps used by the YW but those camps are available to all members - and could easily be used by the YM at minimal extra expense).



You could build a lot of chapels in Africa with those funds.



At camp the past week I've said, "a scout is thrifty" quite a few times. I don't think we're teaching that principle.
I
imuakahuku
A few years ago when I was the YM Pres and the revamped Duty to God was unveiled someone with close ties in Utah (to those in the downtown offices) explained that this was the precursor to if/when the church could no longer support the BSA. Hence we now have a DtG night for mutual and many physical things have been added that resemble those found in the scouting handbook. I suspect this hasn't changed and that they have a more fully developed DtG program sitting in the wings waiting for the day when BSA relents due to law suites etc and mandates that gay leaders be allowed by all scout troops. I remember the first "new" copy I saw looked like they copied several pages from the scout handbook with swimming requirements, hiking, etc. I've been out of YM for a few years now (which disappoints me because now I have a 14yr old son and a 13 yr old daughter going to MIA) and it looks like the book is different from that first one. So I imagine they have a fully developed program that will step right in where Scouts will have left off - activities wise.

I think a real tell tale will be what is the church doing in regards to camps etc. The Johnson farm here in Ohio was changed from farming (I liked going there to pick strawberries and apples, and pruning the apple trees and miss it) to a girls camp. But we regularly hold ward camps there so I can see it easily being used for DtG Camp. So what has the church been doing outside of NE Ohio that would accommodate scouting type activities?
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imuakahuku
In my first and second Ohio wards (I'm in my third now) we had very robust scouting programs. I was YM pres in both and in the YM presidency for a time before being called as president. Our budgets were always really small and barely covered merit badges etc. In the first ward we did take the Laurels and Priests on a day long skiing trip every year to PA and still got a lot of fun activities regardless of not having money for paid activities. One year we did a fundraiser and took the boys to FL on a week long deep sea fishing trip where they stayed on the boat for the whole week. There was a slight difference when I first joined YM but by my third stint as YM pres we were getting nearly the exact same amount of money as the YW program and far below the Primary (but nobody batted an eye to that). So I think it does come down to the local leaders.



As an aside - one of the most successful $ makers I have ever seen was our pizza selling. We would take orders for several weeks (cheese or pep.) and then tally up the total. We then would go to Sam's to buy the ingredients. Some kids would sell over 500 pizzas but most sold between 150-200. We would make them on a set day and then deliver them wrapped and ready from freezing. If the boy did not participate in making and/or delivering them then they would lose out on their cut. We usually made about $2 profit on each. We would sell them for $5 or $6 and many people would buy 10-15 pizzas from the scouts. We paid for so many things including camps, supplies, tents etc. Every year it was a huge income to the troop. I will say it was a few long days for the scoutmaster but he was all in as it was the only fundraiser we did and made enough to even be "creative" with some of our activities.
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byufan4ever
Is there any more news/rumors about when scouting will be dropped? Will it happen at Oct General Conference? I'm the Cub Master and we're kicking off our new year (along with the school year). Do I tell the parents to buy the scout books and uniforms or hold off? If it's going to get canceled soon then that would be a waste of money.
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scott715
They need time. Can you wait a month?
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Guest
Latest I heard was that some scout masters and bishopric members in some wards and stakes were being told they didn't need to bother doing their Friends of Scouting training or whatever. But I have no idea how true that is.
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billbillbillbill
My Great Salt Lake Council connected family member is saying that the General Young Mens are at least asking for a statement or something before September 1st when Friends of Scouting is going to kick off.



He did say he doesn't expect a big change immediately because decisions have to be unanimous and things don't usually move too fast with the brethren. He also says they do know that the latest Duty to God program has been less than successful (I have personally struggled getting my deacons even remotely excited for it). Anyways, that is what I am hearing.
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Schmoe
Would it really be that difficult to create our own wilderness program that goes hand-in-hand with Duty to God? Just pick a wilderness scout name that's not taken and bam! you've got your replacement to Boy Scouts. Even those not of our faith could have their own troops if they're in a similar pickle.
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SpiffCoug
What would the new ranks be?



Tenderfoot = Cricket

2nd Class = Seagull

1st Class = Handcart

Star = Wagon

Life = Ox Cart

Eagle = ????
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