Church Re-evaluating Relationship with BSA

SpiffCoug wrote:
What would the new ranks be?



Tenderfoot = Cricket

2nd Class = Seagull

1st Class = Handcart

Star = Wagon

Life = Ox Cart

Eagle = ????

Tendertoe

2nd Rank

1st Rank

Sun

Heart

Aquila

byufan4ever wrote:
Is there any more news/rumors about when scouting will be dropped? Will it happen at Oct General Conference? I'm the Cub Master and we're kicking off our new year (along with the school year). Do I tell the parents to buy the scout books and uniforms or hold off? If it's going to get canceled soon then that would be a waste of money.

My advice would be to just print off the requirements from online. You could use a little of your budget to print T-shirts for the boys as a Class B uniform, and then they would at least have something they could wear even if scouting does get scrapped. If you haven't heard anything by January, then I would assume we will continue with Scouting.



I feel about 75 percent confident that the Church will withdraw from scouting in the very near future. The 25 percent is based on the idea that the current exception does not force LDS troops to have gay scoutmasters, so it does not change the day to day activities. The Church may wait until the Scouts tells it that it cannot exclude gay scoutmasters. But I think that is a smaller chance than withdrawing now. Typically, the Church does not send out letters as empty threats, and that letter can only be taken as a shot across the bow and a warning of what is about to come.

SpiffCoug wrote:
What would the new ranks be?



Tenderfoot = Cricket

2nd Class = Seagull

1st Class = Handcart

Star = Wagon

Life = Ox Cart

Eagle = ????

I am guessing something pretty classic like Deacon, Teacher, and Priest. ;)

billbillbillbill wrote:
My Great Salt Lake Council connected family member is saying that the General Young Mens are at least asking for a statement or something before September 1st when Friends of Scouting is going to kick off.



He did say he doesn't expect a big change immediately because decisions have to be unanimous and things don't usually move too fast with the brethren. He also says they do know that the latest Duty to God program has been less than successful (I have personally struggled getting my deacons even remotely excited for it). Anyways, that is what I am hearing.

If they don't already have a program ready to go (some rumors indicate they do), I would agree that it will take some time. It shouldn't be too difficult. I looked up in the handbook the purposes of the YM, and there were about six different areas of growth they were looking for (Social, occupational, spiritual, physical, etc.) It would not be too difficult to create a program around that in which the boys planned their own challenging activities. For example, the Priests, in preparing for missions, decided on some creative ideas. One of them was to learn hard work. So they designed a bike track that is going to take a lot of dirt moving and hard work. They also talked about learning to talk to strangers, so they went to a Wal-mart and struck up conversations with strangers. Other mission prep activities will include household activities (like cooking, cleaning, ironing), social activities (learning how to deal with difficult people), and learning how to share the gospel. The possibilities are endless.



You hit on something else that bothers me a little about Scouting, though I don't think it is necessarily Scouting's fault. Some of our youth are struggling to make the spiritual connections, and Scouting can be over-emphasized to the detriment of Duty to God. I don't believe the program is a failure. I believe it is being largely ignored while parents and kids focus on Scouting. I include myself in that statement with my oldest son, who is a new scout. While I have given some encouragement in duty to God, I have not emphasized it nearly as much to him as Scouting. I need to change that.

I definitely agree that the Duty to God is not being emphasized. I know some stakes that do 2 nights of scouting, 1 night combined activity, and 1 night duty to God. I have hoped they would do more on Sundays with it but it seems to not be a worry by anyone in my ward. it really does need to come from parents too.



One thought I have had is if they did move away from scouting, and a bigger emphasis on families being together, is the idea of a weekly activity still needed. I try my best to have a great activity planned every week but it definitely is hard to be excited about some of the requirements. I was just thinking a monthly combined activity as well as 1 or 2 boy lead/planned activities would be fun without the weekly burden. Maybe wishful thinking.

imuakahuku wrote:
A few years ago when I was the YM Pres and the revamped Duty to God was unveiled someone with close ties in Utah (to those in the downtown offices) explained that this was the precursor to if/when the church could no longer support the BSA. Hence we now have a DtG night for mutual and many physical things have been added that resemble those found in the scouting handbook. I suspect this hasn't changed and that they have a more fully developed DtG program sitting in the wings waiting for the day when BSA relents due to law suites etc and mandates that gay leaders be allowed by all scout troops. I remember the first "new" copy I saw looked like they copied several pages from the scout handbook with swimming requirements, hiking, etc. I've been out of YM for a few years now (which disappoints me because now I have a 14yr old son and a 13 yr old daughter going to MIA) and it looks like the book is different from that first one. So I imagine they have a fully developed program that will step right in where Scouts will have left off - activities wise.

I think a real tell tale will be what is the church doing in regards to camps etc. The Johnson farm here in Ohio was changed from farming (I liked going there to pick strawberries and apples, and pruning the apple trees and miss it) to a girls camp. But we regularly hold ward camps there so I can see it easily being used for DtG Camp. So what has the church been doing outside of NE Ohio that would accommodate scouting type activities?

Hey imuakahuku. I served 7 monthd of my mission near the Johnson Farm in the late 70's

Cougarfan87 wrote:

My Great Salt Lake Council connected family member is saying that the General Young Mens are at least asking for a statement or something before September 1st when Friends of Scouting is going to kick off.



He did say he doesn't expect a big change immediately because decisions have to be unanimous and things don't usually move too fast with the brethren. He also says they do know that the latest Duty to God program has been less than successful (I have personally struggled getting my deacons even remotely excited for it). Anyways, that is what I am hearing.

If they don't already have a program ready to go (some rumors indicate they do), I would agree that it will take some time. It shouldn't be too difficult. I looked up in the handbook the purposes of the YM, and there were about six different areas of growth they were looking for (Social, occupational, spiritual, physical, etc.) It would not be too difficult to create a program around that in which the boys planned their own challenging activities. For example, the Priests, in preparing for missions, decided on some creative ideas. One of them was to learn hard work. So they designed a bike track that is going to take a lot of dirt moving and hard work. They also talked about learning to talk to strangers, so they went to a Wal-mart and struck up conversations with strangers. Other mission prep activities will include household activities (like cooking, cleaning, ironing), social activities (learning how to deal with difficult people), and learning how to share the gospel. The possibilities are endless.



You hit on something else that bothers me a little about Scouting, though I don't think it is necessarily Scouting's fault. Some of our youth are struggling to make the spiritual connections, and Scouting can be over-emphasized to the detriment of Duty to God. I don't believe the program is a failure. I believe it is being largely ignored while parents and kids focus on Scouting. I include myself in that statement with my oldest son, who is a new scout. While I have given some encouragement in duty to God, I have not emphasized it nearly as much to him as Scouting. I need to change that.

There was a time when all scout units focused on the spiritual side of life in one form or another. Now it is becoming more and more secular.

At our training (roundtable) tonight, a guy on assignment from the National Parks Council shared a PowerPoint on the need for better risk management that showed a set of statistics that further weighs in favor of the Church stepping away from Scouting. As of 2014:



26% of US Scouts are in LDS troops

53% of US Scouting deaths are LDS

64% of lawsuits arising out of Scouting deaths involve an LDS leader and the Church



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http://www.ksl.com/?sid=36178007&nid=148&title=lds-church-to-keep-scouting-program" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Must say I'm a bit disappointed with this. But I will pray for understanding and lean on the wisdom of our leaders who have made the decision.

Extremely disappointed.

"Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"



Yes, but only because of my calling?

snoscythe wrote:
"Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"



Yes, but only because of my calling?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :~(

I have not hid the fact that I am a big fan of the scouting program. I am relieved by today's announcement but sad to see the reaction from so many.

"Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"

I don't see the contradiction that keeps popping up. I vote as a citizen to a country that allows abortion and gay marriage. I work for a company that by law can't discriminate.

The Boy Scout group I belong to is associated with the LDS church. I think this is a dumb argument.

Schmoe wrote:
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=36178007&nid=148&title=lds-church-to-keep-scouting-program



Must say I'm a bit disappointed with this. But I will pray for understanding and lean on the wisdom of our leaders who have made the decision.

My guess is that pulling away at this time would send the wrong message to our fellow church members who struggle with same sex attraction. If you think of it from their perspective, they are told that so long as they remain celibate, their attraction does not make them unworthy, but is more properly seen as a temptation and a challenge they must deal with. If the Church left scouting merely because the national organization allowed gay leaders, even when the Church was not going to be required to have gay Scoutmasters, then our own gay celibate members might feel the church doesn't really value them as much as they claim to. But I know the Church leaders and especially He that stands at the head of the Church values all individuals, whatever our current struggles may be.



If/when BSA tells the LDS Church that it must allow openly gay (meaning not celibate) scout leaders in its own chartered troops, then the Church will have no other choice but to withdraw from Scouting. Now I have to get some work done so I can go to my son's Court of Honor tonight. Peace.

Leaving the BSA would have been a dumb move for the church. As is, it is something that actually means something in the world outside. A kid who earns his Eagle scout can put that on university applications, job applications, political credentials, etc. Even if a kid doesn't earn Eagle, even participation in boy scouts is a good thing. If the church dropped scouting and replaced it with the "Captain Moroni" award or something, it'd be meaningless outside the church context.



I haven't attended church in more than 5 years, and have no plans to ever return to church activity (from a religious standpoint). Yet, I still send my kids to scouts, support the organization, and actually I am the bear cub scout leader in my ward. If the church dropped scouts, I would immediately send my son to some other nondenominational troop instead. I think this sort of thing probably factored into the church's decision as well. Dropping the BSA would have had some unintended consequences that would have been very negative to the church. In my ward (I live in Draper), there are 8 kids registered in the bear den. 3 are baptized members, 5 (including my son) are unbaptized members of record. There are 4 kids that regularly attend - 2 from each group. I am sure many other wards have similar demographics.



According to the Church's statement a few weeks ago, "The Church has always welcomed all boys to its Scouting units regardless of sexual orientation. However, the admission of openly gay leaders is inconsistent with the doctrines of the Church..." This statement makes no sense, considering gays are allowed to be worthy members in good standing and hold callings (so long as they are not "practicing" their gayness). So why make a different rule for scout leaders, as opposed to any other callings? A gay person is no more likely to be a pedophile than a straight person. Further, kids are most at risk of sexual molestation through their associations with straight male family members. Not saying all possible precautions shouldn't be taken to prevent child abuse via scouting - but saying REGARDLESS of who the leaders are, all precautions must be made and all safety procedures followed. Some of the most vile predators out there are very hard to spot (think that seminary dude from utah county a few years back). The message being sent to gay youth is also very damaging - the idea that they are fully welcome to participate in scouting until they turn 18, then they are automatically kicked out and prevented from any further participation just because they are gay? That is wrong. Period.

Sigh. Friends of scouting. Anew.

I believe that Robert Baden-Powell was inspired of God to create the Boy Scouts. The moral education to young men over the last 100 years has been remarkable, and it has been a great benefit to our country and the world.



We have to think about what we can offer the Boy Scouts in their mission to boys all over the country.

Again, it's not on me to kick against the pricks when it comes to church leaders' decisions, but a lot of the theories posted here seem to boil down to "Well, the church is so worried about alienating less-active, non-active, non-members, and a fractional percent of active members, so they're going to risk alienating lots of other members." Like I said, I'm sure there's a reason and I'll pray for understanding and I do support the decision of church leaders, but I don't buy anything that's been said in this thread as the reason for it.

Maybe its to a good influence within BSA. Who knows what direction they'll take if we left.

Cougarfan87 wrote:

If/when BSA tells the LDS Church that it must allow openly gay (meaning not celibate) scout leaders in its own chartered troops...

It won't be the BSA that dictates that. The federal government will, one day, however, require all tax exempt organizations to not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. Someone, somewhere, for some reason, will sue the Church (or most likely a different church, but the court ruling will apply equally the the LDS Church) and there you have it.