How did Frank Jackson and BYU get so estranged?

I agree with almost everything Sno said, except for Loveridge being drafted...dude has been ok at Utah, but is not a sure fire draftee. Poeltl would likely have been a lottery pick this past year.



The Pac 12 affiliation along with a really, really good coach in Krysto, is more than enough for them to be considered.

stuckinbig10country wrote:
I agree with almost everything Sno said, except for Loveridge being drafted...dude has been ok at Utah, but is not a sure fire draftee. Poeltl would likely have been a lottery pick this past year.



The Pac 12 affiliation along with a really, really good coach in Krysto, is more than enough for them to be considered.

Enough for them to be considered and BYU essentially eliminated?

hawkwing wrote:

Wouldn't you count Kaufusi as a solid NBA prospect? So that would match KC and Kaufusi to Poeltl and Loveridge in my estimation (I'd probably put my money KC and Kaufusi if they played two on two). Add in the return of Mika next year and we still have two pretty solid NBA prospects (at least until opposing coaches and media start crying about age and complaining that they are old and probably shouldn't even be considered for selection in the NBA because of age. Odd thing is the NBA has development leagues for kids to "grow up" and mature before being forced to play against grown men. Funny how that works.

Like Sno says, I watch a lot of BYU basketball, but unlike many other BYU fans I haven't seen anything that would ever lead me to believe that Kaufusi has a chance to get drafted. We're talking about a guy who on the year was statistically less or about as impressive as Luke Worthington. He certainly had a good half in a few games, but I honestly don't even project him to play Euroball.

I've watched what Utah games I could (they were not on that much here in the East - mostly P12 channel starting at 10 or 11p). You are right, I am basing my observations on what I saw of those games. What I saw from Corbin was based on the growth from game to game. His steady improvement was noteworthy and he does possess something JP doesn't - athletic ability. I think by the end of this season if CK keeps improving like last year, you will see his stock skyrocket and JP's plummet. I just don't see JP being successful in the NBA except as a poster boy (from constantly getting dunked on). He is not the second coming of any NBA legend (maybe Kosta K) and especially not Dirk nor anyone even close to that caliber. CK however, I see has the physical body and athletic ability to stick for a while in the NBA provided he gets better at the game. I think JP made a huge blunder by not going to the NBA last year. He will still get drafted because NBA teams seem set on drafting hype over substance and tend to make the dumbest decisions. How else do you explain 1st round picks of Greg Oden and Kosta Koufos? Both got drafted because they were 7 footers (with a lot of hype).

So I go with my gut. CK in my estimation has a better chance of making a team and sticking than JP. Watch JP's highlights on youtube. Watch as he gets schooled by just about everyone on the court. I'm not sure but I think the "highlight real" I saw was meant as a joke but since they are speaking in Chinese or Russian or Kaqchikel or K'iche I can't tell.

If I had to pick between JP and CK, I’ll take CK hands down every time.



BTW you know what they say about statistics :).

Sadly, I don't see KC getting drafted. Not necessarily because he isn't good enough but he's got an uphill battle. Little to no recognition. Any accomplishment he makes will be attributed to playing in a weak conference. The bust of recent BYU players doesn't help him any. He's also white.



He needs an outside shot. Some 25+ point games against top 50 teams and probably a BYU Sweet 16 run.



Kaufusi has along way to go. Won't be able to really tell until his Junior or Senior season. Mika has potential.



Bottom line is Utah has some better horses in the stable but until the last two years, the barn was pretty bare. Utah is hardly a storied institution of NBA-level talent. Duke and Stanford are both above Utah. The only thing Utah has that Duke and Stanford don't is that Utah is local. His family can watch him play and he gets to be a big fish in his backyard pond.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

imuakahuku wrote:
I've watched what Utah games I could (they were not on that much here in the East - mostly P12 channel starting at 10 or 11p). You are right, I am basing my observations on what I saw of those games. What I saw from Corbin was based on the growth from game to game. His steady improvement was noteworthy and he does possess something JP doesn't - athletic ability. I think by the end of this season if CK keeps improving like last year, you will see his stock skyrocket and JP's plummet. I just don't see JP being successful in the NBA except as a poster boy (from constantly getting dunked on). He is not the second coming of any NBA legend (maybe Kosta K) and especially not Dirk nor anyone even close to that caliber. CK however, I see has the physical body and athletic ability to stick for a while in the NBA provided he gets better at the game. I think JP made a huge blunder by not going to the NBA last year. He will still get drafted because NBA teams seem set on drafting hype over substance and tend to make the dumbest decisions. How else do you explain 1st round picks of Greg Oden and Kosta Koufos? Both got drafted because they were 7 footers (with a lot of hype).

So I go with my gut. CK in my estimation has a better chance of making a team and sticking than JP. Watch JP's highlights on youtube. Watch as he gets schooled by just about everyone on the court. I'm not sure but I think the "highlight real" I saw was meant as a joke but since they are speaking in Chinese or Russian or Kaqchikel or K'iche I can't tell.

If I had to pick between JP and CK, I’ll take CK hands down every time.



BTW you know what they say about statistics :).

I think you are confused on what makes a good pick in the NBA.



Oden when healthy was an effective NBA center. Their are less than 30 effective NBA centers in the league. The chance of drafting rim protection, size and a passable offensive game is worth the chance of a high 1st round pick.



I forgot the exact numbers but something like 50% of 1st picks 15-30 bust and are out of the league in 3 years. Koufos was a late lottery pick (12 as I recall). He has turned into a good rotation/backup big man. That is a good return for a 1st round pick.



Poeltl probably is close the Koufos type of player. He provides some shot blocking, some size/rebounding and is a passable offensive player. Many of his problem last year were caused by lack of strength, which should come in time. In other words he has a clear NBA role, position and proven path to success.



Collinsworth is in a weird position- right now he is probably viewed a poor man's Evan Turner. He is older (read unlikely to improve). He gets a lot of his stats but overpowering his competition, which probably won't continue in the nba. And what is his path to an NBA role? NBA wings have 3 normal roles-3 point shooting, perimeter defense and attacking the basket. All of the above question marks. If he played more high-level competition he might have answered the perimeter defense and attacking the basket questions. At the least, I think he will get some summer league chances.

Mars wrote:


I saw an article a few days ago mentioning that Frank Jackson says that BYU is one of his final four schools he's considering.

So you are saying there is a chance.

I don't think it's really about the Jacksons deciding they don't like BYU anymore. I have no inside info, but I've followed the recruitment pretty closely (as much as a fan who doesn't have inside info can) and a few things come to mind right now hours before his official announcement.



Brandon Gurney did a nice interview and article about Frank right after he de-committed from BYU. One of the main things that came across to me in the article about the Jackson's and the whole process was how naive they were at the beginning. They just didn't know how good of a player Frank was. They loved BYU and prayed for an offer. They saw it as a great school and a great place for Frank to go to school both as a basketball player and student. The offer came and they were elated.



Then Frank started playing at some national tournaments and events and noticed he was better than a lot of the players who had offers to places like N. Carolina, Duke, etc., And as he has said, he decided to open up the recruiting process, which I think is totally understandable.



Then for a little while as the recruiting started to heat up his dad I think got a little too caught up in the hype for a little while, judging from some of his tweets. There was the infamous exchange between him and a friend who came off as a Utah fan perhaps and who commented on one of Frank's impressive highlights and said something like "BYU isn't worthy of him," which got a "like" from Al Jackson. There were a few other similar tweets. And then he probably wised up and stopped tweeting stuff. Reading between the lines, I get the impression that as they got more involved in the recruiting process they perhaps started to resent a little that BYU and Dave Rose got them committed so early before they knew how good Frank was. It's kind of like he was trying to get him locked up before Frank had the chance to check out "better" options. That's just my speculation.



On the other hand, that's exactly what a good basketball coach is supposed to do. Frank is LDS, living in Utah County, playing ball with other players who are going to BYU. Rose was going to notice Frank before the others. And as a good basketball coach he's going to see potential and talent even before the player or his parents do. As a BYU fan I think BYU should still try to get the guys who are good enough to play for Duke. They may not get them, but they need to try their best.



Whatever Frank chooses, and I believe it's going to be Duke, I'll be disappointed if it's not BYU, but I wish him the best. And Dave Rose is going to continue to go after the best players he can that will succeed at BYU. And most of the time he's going to get the ones he most needs and wants. But the ESPN top 10 guys are going to be tough, even if they're LDS. The reality is there are probably only 3-5 schools in the country who can usually get those players anyway.

Mars wrote:


I saw an article a few days ago mentioning that Frank Jackson says that BYU is one of his final four schools he's considering.

Yes. BYU is one of his official final four. He's never said anything but positive things about BYU. I just think he probably sees Duke most likely as where he most wants to go. If he had somehow stayed under the radar, which is pretty much impossible these days for someone as good as he is, I think he would have been perfectly happy to go to BYU.

snoscythe wrote:

Furthermore, there's a world of difference between a "solid NBA prospect," as you categorize Kaufusi/KC/Mika, and a "near-lock to be drafted", as I categorized Loveridge and Poeltl. Tyler Haws was a solid NBA prospect, but didn't even get a D-League invite. P

Loveridge isn't going to be drafted. As a jr. last year he only scored 10ppg on 41% shooting. There is nothing that stands out as "NBA" about him. He's a nice college role player at this point. He may have a breakout senior year, but we haven't seen anything yet that would indicate that's a sure thing.

FJ to Duke and no mission.



I get the whole Duke thing and not surprised. My guess is he thinks he has a shot at being a one and done player or perhaps in a couple years. NBA appears to be on his radar. Mission has obviously taken a back seat for now. Doesn't mean he can't or won't serve. I waited a year to serve out of choice, but he did go from serving a mission right out of school to not serving.



Wonder if Coach K got Jabari on the line to tell FJ something like, "Oh yeah, as an NBA player I have all sorts of mission opportunities and am just as effective. My reach is global." I would, if I was coach K.



Best of luck FJ. Won't say I am not disappointed.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Duke would be hard to pass up. I get that. But I'm afraid he's selling himself short on the whole mission thing.



Good luck.



Also disappointed....

Great opportunity to go to Duke, there's a storied program there that BYU's pales in comparison to. Great opportunity to get to the NBA there, little to no chance to the NBA going through BYU. Saddened about not currently looking to go on a mission but it's his choice.



I would have loved to see BYU pick him up, I think he's a tremendous talent.

hawkwing wrote:
Great opportunity to go to Duke, there's a storied program there that BYU's pales in comparison to. Great opportunity to get to the NBA there, little to no chance to the NBA going through BYU. Saddened about not currently looking to go on a mission but it's his choice.



I would have loved to see BYU pick him up, I think he's a tremendous talent.

LIttle to no chance for Frank Jackson of making the NBA through BYU? What????? That's insanely ridiculous. If he's got NBA talent at Duke, he still has it at BYU. If you have the talent, the NBA will find you just find. They had no problem drafting Shawn Bradley #2 even after only one year of college and two years being totally out of basketball on the other side of the world.



Duke sends more players to the NBA because they recruit better talent. It' s not likeJabari Parker would have lost his shot at the NBA had he gone to BYU. On the other hand, No way someone like Noah Hartsock would have made the NBA had he gone to Duke. For making it to the NBA it's probably at least 95% about natural talent that has nothing to do with where you went to school.



If anything, there is a strong argument to be made that marginal talent has a BETTER chance of getting to the NBA playing for BYU. Brandon Davies, even Jimmer, would very likely not have spent any time in the NBA had they gone to Duke because they would have been playing behind better talent and wouldn't have gotten a chance in college to show the NBA anything.



The reason BYU doesn't send more players to the NBA is because they haven't been recruiting NBA talent. Very few teams can. Other than the Kentuckys and Dukes, most teams are lucky to send even one guy to the NBA each year because 90% of the blue chip talent every year gets eaten up by only a half dozen schools.

BlueK wrote:
LIttle to no chance of making the NBA through BYU? What????? That's insanely ridiculous. If you have the talent the NBA will find you. Duke sends more players to the NBA because they recruit better talent.

Actually, in this instance they were recruiting the exact same talent.

If anything, there is a strong argument to be made that marginal talent has a BETTER chance of getting to the NBA playing for BYU. Brandon Davies, even Jimmer, would not likely not have spent any time in the NBA had they gone to Duke because they would have been playing behind better talent and wouldn't have gotten a chance in college to show the NBA anything.

Even assuming your premise that marginal talent has a better shot at making it to the NBA out of BYU than Duke is true (personally, I think it's laughable), the problem with your distinction is this--what college recruit honestly says to himself, "Gee, Duke is looking at me, but I'm only a marginal talent, therefore I should probably look somewhere else if I want to get the the Association." I doubt anyone being recruited by Duke thinks of himself as a marginal talent and probably sees himself as a starter. I can't think of many guys who sign with Duke (or anywhere, really) planning to ride the pine.



As for your premise as a whole, BYU had two players on NBA rosters last year. This year they might have one if Jimmer can stick with SA. They may have zero.



Duke had 18 players on NBA rosters last year. This year they will have 19.



Even Utah has three players who will be on NBA rosters this next season (Bogut, Miller, Wright).



I don't think anyone, regardless of talent level, thinks of BYU when they think of how to get the NBA, regardless of talent level.

snoscythe wrote:

LIttle to no chance of making the NBA through BYU? What????? That's insanely ridiculous. If you have the talent the NBA will find you. Duke sends more players to the NBA because they recruit better talent.

Actually, in this instance they were recruiting the exact same talent.

If anything, there is a strong argument to be made that marginal talent has a BETTER chance of getting to the NBA playing for BYU. Brandon Davies, even Jimmer, would not likely not have spent any time in the NBA had they gone to Duke because they would have been playing behind better talent and wouldn't have gotten a chance in college to show the NBA anything.

Even assuming your premise that marginal talent has a better shot at making it to the NBA out of BYU than Duke is true (personally, I think it's laughable), the problem with your distinction is this--what college recruit honestly says to himself, "Gee, Duke is looking at me, but I'm only a marginal talent, therefore I should probably look somewhere else if I want to get the the Association." I doubt anyone being recruited by Duke thinks of himself as a marginal talent and probably sees himself as a starter. I can't think of many guys who sign with Duke (or anywhere, really) planning to ride the pine.



As for your premise as a whole, BYU had two players on NBA rosters last year. This year they might have one if Jimmer can stick with SA. They may have zero.



Duke had 18 players on NBA rosters last year. This year they will have 19.



Even Utah has three players who will be on NBA rosters this next season (Bogut, Miller, Wright).



I don't think anyone, regardless of talent level, thinks of BYU when they think of how to get the NBA, regardless of talent level.

I actually don't disagree with anything you just said. Of course top HS talent would almost always rather go to a place like Duke.

Actually, in this instance they were recruiting the exact same talent.



Exactly. In this rare case, it's the SAME talent. Therefore, my main point that it's ridiculous to say that Frank Jackson has little to no chance of making the NBA through BYU. It's completely irrelevant whether other players who don't have NBA talent and play for BYU have little to no chance of getting there. We're not talking about them and I would never make the argument that a guy who doesn't have what the NBA wants would still make the NBA going to BYU. They wouldn't get there through Duke either. Each case is individual. If Duke were to sign a player who doesn't have NBA talent (like that LDS Christensen guy a few years ago) they still wouldn't make the NBA. Whether they would rather play for Duke or not in that case isn't relevant to the argument. Of course most players would rather go to a place like that.



And my comment about Davies or Jimmer was just to point out that at least for a couple of years, NBA teams DID want their talent. That's not even in dispute. They went to BYU and it did happen. But Frank is above their level and would have it much easier getting there.



IF Frank Jackson naturally has what the NBA wants, the NBA will take him whether he plays for Duke, or BYU, or Weber State. Of course I understand why he'd choose to go to Duke. There are lots of other reasons (Coach K, ACC, national rankings, better chance at winning national chamionship in college, etc.) There are other non-basketball reasons for choosing BYU, but they weren't strong enough for him, and that's fine.

I do not admire anyone for going to Duke. If I were young and was the best talent in the nation I would never choose them. Blue K you are making some good points.

As I stated before, it's sad that he's put basketball and his NBA aspirations ahead of a mission. I'm sure it's a tough decision when you have that level of talent, but if my kids are in that situation I'm steering them toward BYU and a mission first. Maybe you still make it to the NBA, maybe you don't, but you'll still have a great life with a lot stronger foundation. Going to Duke is Not worth the sacrifice.

BYULV wrote:
As I stated before, it's sad that he's put basketball and his NBA aspirations ahead of a mission. I'm sure it's a tough decision when you have that level of talent, but if my kids are in that situation I'm steering them toward BYU and a mission first. Maybe you still make it to the NBA, maybe you don't, but you'll still have a great life with a lot stronger foundation. Going to Duke is Not worth the sacrifice.

Ditto! I wish I'd have said it like you did. Years ago my cousin went to Utah State and did very well there. He then went on a mission serving the Lord and came back to another school which did not appreciate him as USU did. We all felt that cost him a lucrative NBA career. However at this time he is in a bishopric still serving the Lord. In the end that is what really counts.