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Unga is Staying, Officially!

by hawkwing · 1/15/2010

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ABYUFAN
snoscythe wrote:
Are you giving credit to Fui being an NFL fullback in Harvey's freshman year? Because originally you were saying that the only reason Harvey was playing in his freshman year was because Fui was injured. It seems to be a bit of having it both ways to say Fui was injured, therefore Harvey benefited, and he also benefited by having Fui as a blocker....


Manase was the FB Harvey's freshman season.


SO Unga had TWO NFL fullbacks for him his freshman season... :crazy:
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Short_Change
snoscythe wrote:
snoscythe wrote:
Again he wasn't really that limited his sophomore year. That's exaggerated. He played in 10 games. You really think that with Harvey's running style it's easier to stay healthy? Harvey hits someone hard at least once every time he touches the ball and has probably played hurt his whole career. Staley? Don't really remember him giving or taking many hard hits.


He absolutely was limited his sophomore year. He was never 100% and was fighting nagging ankle and knee sprains all season long.



Whether a running style is easier to stay healthy in is besides the point--how does that factor into which back is better? The fact is that Luke was only healthy for a majority of the season and not splitting carries with a future NFLer in one season--his junior season. Harvey has never split carries with another RB, and he has had future NFL FBs blocking for him each season he has played, something Staley never had.



If you think a healthy Luke Staley couldn't have done better with the same surrounding personnel as Harvey has been blessed with, there's nothing I can say to change that. I just think it's myopic.



Again, I think Luke is the best we've ever had, but I agree that Harvey is the most valuable we have had, in large part due to his durability. But durability is not the same as talent.


I never said Harvey was better because of his running style. You are amazing Sno.


I never said you did....in response to your question as to whether it was easier for a back to stay healthy in Unga's sytle vs. Staley's, I simply said that the ability to stay healthy in one style vs. another is besides the point. At not point did I accuse you of saying Harvey was better because of running style. I simply accused you of inserting the non sequitor of ability to stay healthy in a given running style. Your reading comprehension is amazing.



Do you ever care to address Harvey having NFL fullbacks blocking for him in all three seasons, or are you going to continue to ignore it and credit Harvey with everything, while discrediting Staley for playing in an "option" offense which somehow attempted nearly as many passes [486] as BYU has in every year Harvey has played [493, 503, 419] in a "spread option" offense.



Also, what Luke did or didn't do in the NFL is moot at this point. Harvey has done nothing at the NFL, so to go beyond college is to make comparisons is inane.


Yep just as inane as saying that Manase is already an NFL-er. Sno I love how hypocritical you are. :)

You didn't have to say that I thought Harvey's running style made him better. You inferred it by asking me the question as if I had said it. Otherwise I don't know why you would ask such a question.



I don't think NFL experiences are a moot point. If you asked me who was the better QB between Young and Detmer, I'd say Young even though Detmer won the Heisman. Was Luke's junior season a bit of a fluke? He was considered the best college RB in 2001 but didn't prove himself at the Pro level when he had a chance. Look at all the past Doak Walker award winnners, I'm pretty sure he wasn't nearly as good as all of them.
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snoscythe
Short_Change wrote:
Yep just as inane as saying that Manase is already an NFL-er. Sno I love how hypocritical you are. :)


I'll give you that I am jumping the gun on Manase, if you identify which blocker Staley had blocking for him that was as capable as either Fui or Manase, even just someone who has been invited to an NFL combine as a FB. You keep evading the point.


You didn't have to say that I thought Harvey's running style made him better. You inferred it by asking me the question as if I had said it. Otherwise I don't know why you would ask such a question.


I simply asked you how it was relevant to a discussion as to who was the better back. You brought it up, and you have yet to tell me how the argument that one player runs in a more injury prone style than another has any bearing on the debate over who is the better back.


I don't think NFL experiences are a moot point. If you asked me who was the better QB between Young and Detmer, I'd say Young even though Detmer won the Heisman. Was Luke's junior season a bit of a fluke? He was considered the best college RB in 2001 but didn't prove himself at the Pro level when he had a chance. Look at all the past Doak Walker award winnners, I'm pretty sure he wasn't nearly as good as all of them.


Fine, we'll use NFL experience. Luke played in the NFL. Harvey has not. Because Harvey hasn't played in the NFL, but Luke did, Luke must have been better, right? The problem with your Detmer/Young comparison is that both ran the course of their careers in the NFL. Harvey hasn't done anything in the NFL yet, so a comparison with Luke's NFL misfortunes is disingenuous at best. Once they both have NFL experience, you can compare, but when only one of the two you want to compare has NFL experience, you simply can't compare.



I think Luke Staley was at least as good as former Doak Walker winners Byron Hanspard, Greg Lewis, Rashaan Salaam, and Trevor Cobb....three of which had injury shortened careers as well, although they were fortunate enough to make it out of their first preseason before getting injured, unlike Staley.
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Lawboy
Ask any NFL scout who was the better NFL prospect--the better talent-- if healthy, and it will be Staley hands down. Not even a question. If we had Unga or Staley to choose from next year, Staley starts. Harvey is a stud. Staley is just a freakish type athlete BYU rarely gets at that position. And it really is not even a close debate.



Riddle me this, who is better: Maurice Clarett or Beanie Wells? Harvey is Maurice, in case you wondered.
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Short_Change
Staley had Sitake for at least some of the time and he was servicable, but as I've said before the 2001 offense was completely different which makes it hard to compare. You can't compare the two just by stats although you can't discredit all the stats. Before Crowton got there and before Doman was QB Staley didn't do nearly as well. He was still pretty good, but not great. Your FB argument is interesting in the fact that a lot of the time Harvey didn't have a FB leading the way. He ran out of shotgun a lot and didn't always have a lead blocker. It would be interesting to find out what his YPC was with a FB leading the way and without. Next year we'll be able to see what he can do without Manase and Fui. My prediction is that he'll have his best season yet.



You can also do a reverse argument by asking when did Harvey have a Doman-like QB running the option with him? Of course the answer is never, but if he had how would he do? We might get a chance to find out with Riley Nelson next year. The argument is still ongoing whether Unga or Staley is the best BYU RB ever. The only reason I brought up Staley in the NFL was because he was a flop and maybe a lot of his success in 2001 was due to a new offense and Doman. His Freshman year he averaged 4.7 YPC, his sophomore year he averaged 3.7 YPC, and then his junior year he averaged an amazing 8.1 YPC and then he flopped in the NFL. Who is the real Luke Staley? He was probably better than his Freshman year showed and not as good as his Junior year showed he was.
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Short_Change
Lawboy wrote:
Ask any NFL scout who was the better NFL prospect--the better talent-- if healthy, and it will be Staley hands down. Not even a question. If we had Unga or Staley to choose from next year, Staley starts. Harvey is a stud. Staley is just a freakish type athlete BYU rarely gets at that position. And it really is not even a close debate.



Riddle me this, who is better: Maurice Clarett or Beanie Wells? Harvey is Maurice, in case you wondered.


The is a terrible comparison. Maurice was a head case.
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Schmoe
Harvey has been more consistent over his entire career at BYU. That being said, Staley was an ANIMAL, the dude was A-M-A-Z-I-N-G. He had the size like Unga, but the speed, my goodness that speed, and the cuts and moves. Averaged 16 points a game, 144 yards a game, 8 yards a carry, and 1600 yards in 11 games. Had he been healthy through school, he would have set tons of BYU rushing records and would have done fine in the NFL. He was never 100% after the Miss. St. game.



Anyway, to argue who was "better," you'd have to define what better means. Staley was more athletic and had more potential, but couldn't stay healthy. Unga has stayed healthy and been a consistent workhorse for the Cougs for three straight years, perhaps making him more valuable to the school and the team in the long run. They have both played at BYU under very different circumstances and are very different kinds of runners.
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BoiseBYU
Lawboy wrote:
Ask any NFL scout who was the better NFL prospect--the better talent-- if healthy, and it will be Staley hands down. Not even a question. If we had Unga or Staley to choose from next year, Staley starts. Harvey is a stud. Staley is just a freakish type athlete BYU rarely gets at that position. And it really is not even a close debate.



Riddle me this, who is better: Maurice Clarett or Beanie Wells? Harvey is Maurice, in case you wondered.


This comparison makes as much sense as saying New York is to New Yorkers as Paris is to Parisites....
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ABYUFAN
BoiseBYU wrote:
Ask any NFL scout who was the better NFL prospect--the better talent-- if healthy, and it will be Staley hands down. Not even a question. If we had Unga or Staley to choose from next year, Staley starts. Harvey is a stud. Staley is just a freakish type athlete BYU rarely gets at that position. And it really is not even a close debate.



Riddle me this, who is better: Maurice Clarett or Beanie Wells? Harvey is Maurice, in case you wondered.


This comparison makes as much sense as saying New York is to New Yorkers as Paris is to Parisites....


Or, if you were banished from the Island of Crete does that make you an "excretion"
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craigoscarson
Lawboy wrote:
Ask any NFL scout who was the better NFL prospect--the better talent-- if healthy, and it will be Staley hands down. Not even a question. If we had Unga or Staley to choose from next year, Staley starts. Harvey is a stud. Staley is just a freakish type athlete BYU rarely gets at that position. And it really is not even a close debate.



Riddle me this, who is better: Maurice Clarett or Beanie Wells? Harvey is Maurice, in case you wondered.


Clarett had so many bizzarre personality issues, it's hard to think of him as a football player and harder to compare him to other players (especially since he only played one season)



As a college player, Clarett was better. Clarett may have been one the most impressive freshman running backs I've ever seen. Clarett starred at Ohio State for one season, rushing for 1,237 yards (a school record for a freshman) and scoring 18 touchdowns, which helped the Buckeyes to a 14-0 record and the 2002 BCS National Championship. (as a true freshman)



Certainly he was not a burner (this is where he does compare to Harvey) but his personality and work ethic issues were the problem. We have no idea what kind of NFL career Clarett would have had if had he a work ethic and some semblance of sanity. He was still drafted in the 3rd round.



As sad as Staley's injury issues were (coupled with his bonehead decision to skip most of his junior year of classes.... before he got reinjured) he was probably as close as BYU will ever get to an Adrian Peterson type running back. Luke was a potential homerun on every play in college and deserved every bit of that Doak Walker award his junior year.



What becomes of someone in the pros is inconsequential in discussing how good a college player they were. Go ahead and tell me that Greg Oden, Tyler Hansbrough, or Adam Morrison were terrible college players because they aren't studs in the NBA.



Harvey could leave BYU as the most valuable running back in BYU history, but he's not the best; that goes to Staley.. and it's not even close right now.



That being said, I'm a much bigger fan of Harvey. His career has helped usher in the revival of BYU as a premiere football school and there couldn't be a better bridge to the future of BYU football than Harvey coming back as a senior.



btw - I've watched this video like 15 times this week.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLatterdaySaints#p/u/8/ygRpMzeWnHs

the more I watch it, the more I'm glad it ended like it did and not by the blow out it could have been. Max Hall put his signature on the BYU/Utah games and it's easy to forgive the middle game.

Max might be my 2nd favorite BYU qb behind Detmer now..
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Short_Change
No one has ever said that Staley was a terrible college player. Although the people you mentioned, Oden, Hansbrough, and Morrison have actually stayed in the NBA and Oden and Hansbrough have contributed.
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SpiffCoug
Short_Change wrote:
Short_Change wrote:
Short_Change wrote:
Harvey has had 1300-1800 yards total every year he's played. That's more impressive than a Doak Walker award, IMHO.


Harvey's best rushing year was his first year with 1,227. He did have 655 yards receiving that year to give him 1,882 total yards. But he hasn't approached that number since.


Not true. Again you guys need to look at the whole picture. Statistically speaking Harvey had his best rushing season this past season. Had he not missed pretty much the first two games and part of the third game he should have eclipsed 1300 yards rushing.



Harvey has got to be the most underappreciated RB we've ever had. I know a lot of people think highly of him, but I don't think most people realized how good he is and how lucky we've been to have him.


You can't in one breath say Staley wasn't as good because he was injured and then in the next say Harvey had his best year this year but because he only played in 10 games we didn't get to see it.



Bottom line IMO: Staley was the more talented. Unga the more productive. Edge to Harvey in durability. BYU was/is lucky to have had both play in Provo.


I never said Staley wasn't better because he was injured. Not sure where you got that. It's a fact that statistically speaking Harvey had his best rushing season last year. You can't argue with that.


Sorry for not getting back sooner. But one of your criticisms of Staley and a reason why you giving the nod to Harvey is because of all of Staley's injuries. Then when you say that had Harvey been healthy this past year (and not missed the better part of three games) he would have had 1300 yards you're trying to have your cake and eat it to. That's what I was trying to say.
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SpiffCoug
One thing I wish Staley had done that Harvey is doing and that is coming back for a senior season. 2002 would have been very different with Staley. Of course, I also wish Norm Chow had wasted Brandon Doman's red-shirt for 11 plays at WR in 1999. Or else he too would have been a senior in 2002 and that would have dramatically changed the season as well.



Of course, perhaps Staley gets hurt anyways.



I also think that if you transposed both players that Staley would still be extremely effective in the current offense. I'm not sure Harvey would be in the 2001 offense - or whatever we were pretending to call offense in 1999 and 2000.
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Short_Change
All I was talking about was YPC. Harvey had a better YPC two out of the three years vs Staley. Obviously Staley's junior year easily trumps Harvey's junior year. Sno said that YPC is probably the most important statistic. Harvey's yard per carry last year was his best. That's all I was trying to say.
M
Mars


QUESTION- Is it offensive to Harvey Unga fans to see him labelled as "merely" the 2nd best running back ever at BYU?



(Sorry Eldon "The Phantom" Fortie and "Fleet" Pete Van Valkenburg)
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ABYUFAN
It's not offensive to me. I already said I'm fine with the difference of opinion. I guess you could also ask that question of the Staley backers



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M
Mars
ABYUFAN wrote:
It's not offensive to me. I already said I'm fine with the difference of opinion. I guess you could also ask that question of the Staley backers

I think the "Staley-backers" have a hard time ignoring -1- Yards Per Carry, and -2- The Doak Walker Award. And rightly so. Kind of like when comparing QBs, Bosco can always pull out the National Championship, Detmer can whip out the Heisman Trophy, and Steve Young can play the Super Bowl Champ card. Kind of nice to be able to say isn't it?
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ABYUFAN
Don't forget McMahon. He's got a Miracle Bowl and two Super Bowls (although we usually just give him credit for one)



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