Unga is Staying, Officially!

It's difficult to do anything in the pros on one leg, just sayin...

Schmoe wrote:
It's difficult to do anything in the pros on one leg, just sayin...

If you're talking about his injury his previous year, well, he was invited to training camp the next year and was waived and never got picked up. It partly could have been because of all his injuries, but if he had made a good impression on the field someone would have picked him up. I think he was a good RB but benefited greatly from the offensive system his junior year. I think he was better than what he showed his sophomore year (out of the top four rushers that year he had the worst YPC) but not as good as what he showed his junior year when he had an astonishing 8.1 YPC. He improved his YPC by 4.4.

snoscythe wrote:
Getting 1000 yards per season is a function of health and depth too.....you think if Luke was healthy and not splitting snaps with a future NFL-er he would have hit 1,000? He never had a chance. If Fui didn't get injured Harvey's freshman season, would Harvey have gotten his 1,000 yards as a 2nd stringer?



Yards per carry tells me what you do when you get the ball. Averaging better than 8 yards a carry in a season is more than just speed. Only one guy in collegiate football history has done better with more than 150 carries.



Nine guys have had 4 1000+ yard seasons....I don't think anyone bothers keeping track of how many have 3 1000+ yards seasons.

Sno, your research kinda disappoints me. The only time Luke split snaps with a future NFL-er was his freshman season while Tahi was also a Freshman. The other two years Brian McDonald split snaps with him and McDonald had the better year in 2000.

kitic77 wrote:

Harvey has had 1300-1800 yards total every year he's played. That's more impressive than a Doak Walker award, IMHO.

Harvey's best rushing year was his first year with 1,227. He did have 655 yards receiving that year to give him 1,882 total yards. But he hasn't approached that number since.

Not true. Again you guys need to look at the whole picture. Statistically speaking Harvey had his best rushing season this past season. Had he not missed pretty much the first two games and part of the third game he should have eclipsed 1300 yards rushing.



Harvey has got to be the most underappreciated RB we've ever had. I know a lot of people think highly of him, but I don't think most people realized how good he is and how lucky we've been to have him.

Short_Change wrote:

Short_Change wrote:
Harvey has had 1300-1800 yards total every year he's played. That's more impressive than a Doak Walker award, IMHO.

Harvey's best rushing year was his first year with 1,227. He did have 655 yards receiving that year to give him 1,882 total yards. But he hasn't approached that number since.

Not true. Again you guys need to look at the whole picture. Statistically speaking Harvey had his best rushing season this past season. Had he not missed pretty much the first two games and part of the third game he should have eclipsed 1300 yards rushing.



Harvey has got to be the most underappreciated RB we've ever had. I know a lot of people think highly of him, but I don't think most people realized how good he is and how lucky we've been to have him.

You couldn't be more wrong about Unga being underappreciated. At least on this board, we all know Harvey is the all-time career rushing leader for BYU and is on track to be the ONLY BYU RB who has 1,000 yards rushing for four seasons. We also expect him to be the anchor on offense as the team breaks in new TEs and a new QB. Harvey is a special RB no one is denying that. He's definitely one of BYU's top 3 RBs of all time.



So I don't understand how he can be underappreciated by us fans when we all know what's he's done so far and what he can do for us next season. We greatly worried about the OU game knowing he wasn't going to play and were greatly relieved that his understudy did just fine.



What is being discussed is whether he's the best ever at RB for BYU. It's really hard to select him over Staley given Staley walked away with the Doak Walker award and was consesus All-America his jr. year. He did that while missing two regular season games as well. Staley was a big back too, but was so fast he didn't need to run over people, he was able to run around them, run away from them, and make them miss. As soon as he had a half step on the defender, it was over. He was gone for a first down or TD.



Unfortunately, Staley was injury prone and it was his health that was the reason he wasn't picked up by another NFL team after being cut by Detroit. His health history was well known to NFL teams, which is why he fell to the 7th and final round. Detroit took a chance hoping his health would hold up. Unfortunately, he injured himself in training camp and pretty much ended any chance he had at a pro career.



For my money, I'd take a healthy Staley over any other back who's suited up in Cougar Blue, but I'd love to have Unga right there with him too.

Short_Change wrote:

Getting 1000 yards per season is a function of health and depth too.....you think if Luke was healthy and not splitting snaps with a future NFL-er he would have hit 1,000? He never had a chance. If Fui didn't get injured Harvey's freshman season, would Harvey have gotten his 1,000 yards as a 2nd stringer?



Yards per carry tells me what you do when you get the ball. Averaging better than 8 yards a carry in a season is more than just speed. Only one guy in collegiate football history has done better with more than 150 carries.



Nine guys have had 4 1000+ yard seasons....I don't think anyone bothers keeping track of how many have 3 1000+ yards seasons.

Sno, your research kinda disappoints me. The only time Luke split snaps with a future NFL-er was his freshman season while Tahi was also a Freshman. The other two years Brian McDonald split snaps with him and McDonald had the better year in 2000.

I only said that if he was healthy and not splitting snaps with a future NFL-er things would have been cherrier for him. I never said he was splitting reps with an NFLer his second season. His second season he was limited by knee and ankle injuries.



Tell me--in which season did Luke Staley have a future NFL fullback playing FB and throwing blocks for him? Answer? None. He played with Tahi in 99, but Tahi was a RB, not a FB. Harvey has had Manase Tonga and/or Fui Vakapuna blocking for him in each season. It's a little bit easier to stay healthy and pick up yards when you have a great FB plowing the way.



I'm not saying Harvey isn't a great back. I think he is easily the second best back we have had. All I am saying is that Luke Staley was a one-in-a-million talent we likely will never see again, and that if he had been in Harvey's situation, I think he would obliterate what Harvey has done. I don't consider it to be knocking Harvey to admit that Luke was a better player.

Staley was the most explosive player ever to play at BYU. He was a potential home run every time he got the ball. He also didn't have as much talent around him on offense as Harvey.



Harv is capable of wrecking a dline and helping an offense control the ballgame, converting 3rd downs, and working the clock in our favor. As big as he is, we use him to nickle and dime a team down the field and it works too.



If Staley was our Babe Ruth, then Harv is our Ted Williams. Take your pick, they're both great.



Harv made one great decision that Luke didn't though; he did his schoolwork, showed up for class his junior season and is eligible to play his senior year.

It's tough to say what Staley would do because the offense is completely different. I know Staley had health issues but he played in 10 games during his sophomore year and he didn't perform well. In fact he had more carries his sophomore year than his freshman year but had less yards per carry, much less. What we do know is that once he had Doman at QB he exploded. How well would he have done with a pocket passer and without the option? You could easily say Doman was to Staley as Tonga/Fui were to Harvey. I guess we'll see how much Harvey needed Tonga and Fui next year. I bet he has his best season yet.

snoscythe wrote:

snoscythe wrote:
Getting 1000 yards per season is a function of health and depth too.....you think if Luke was healthy and not splitting snaps with a future NFL-er he would have hit 1,000? He never had a chance. If Fui didn't get injured Harvey's freshman season, would Harvey have gotten his 1,000 yards as a 2nd stringer?



Yards per carry tells me what you do when you get the ball. Averaging better than 8 yards a carry in a season is more than just speed. Only one guy in collegiate football history has done better with more than 150 carries.



Nine guys have had 4 1000+ yard seasons....I don't think anyone bothers keeping track of how many have 3 1000+ yards seasons.

Sno, your research kinda disappoints me. The only time Luke split snaps with a future NFL-er was his freshman season while Tahi was also a Freshman. The other two years Brian McDonald split snaps with him and McDonald had the better year in 2000.

I only said that if he was healthy and not splitting snaps with a future NFL-er things would have been cherrier for him. I never said he was splitting reps with an NFLer his second season. His second season he was limited by knee and ankle injuries.



Tell me--in which season did Luke Staley have a future NFL fullback playing FB and throwing blocks for him? Answer? None. He played with Tahi in 99, but Tahi was a RB, not a FB. Harvey has had Manase Tonga and/or Fui Vakapuna blocking for him in each season. It's a little bit easier to stay healthy and pick up yards when you have a great FB plowing the way.



I'm not saying Harvey isn't a great back. I think he is easily the second best back we have had. All I am saying is that Luke Staley was a one-in-a-million talent we likely will never see again, and that if he had been in Harvey's situation, I think he would obliterate what Harvey has done. I don't consider it to be knocking Harvey to admit that Luke was a better player.

Again he wasn't really that limited his sophomore year. That's exaggerated. He played in 10 games. You really think that with Harvey's running style it's easier to stay healthy? Harvey hits someone hard at least once every time he touches the ball and has probably played hurt his whole career. Staley? Don't really remember him giving or taking many hard hits.

I do not remember Staley as having as good of hands out of the backfield as Harvey has...I am not sure what the stats show, but my memory at least is that Harvey is the better receiver...

Short_Change wrote:
Again he wasn't really that limited his sophomore year. That's exaggerated. He played in 10 games. You really think that with Harvey's running style it's easier to stay healthy? Harvey hits someone hard at least once every time he touches the ball and has probably played hurt his whole career. Staley? Don't really remember him giving or taking many hard hits.

He absolutely was limited his sophomore year. He was never 100% and was fighting nagging ankle and knee sprains all season long.



Whether a running style is easier to stay healthy in is besides the point--how does that factor into which back is better? The fact is that Luke was only healthy for a majority of the season and not splitting carries with a future NFLer in one season--his junior season. Harvey has never split carries with another RB, and he has had future NFL FBs blocking for him each season he has played, something Staley never had.



If you think a healthy Luke Staley couldn't have done better with the same surrounding personnel as Harvey has been blessed with, there's nothing I can say to change that. I just think it's myopic.



Again, I think Luke is the best we've ever had, but I agree that Harvey is the most valuable we have had, in large part due to his durability. But durability is not the same as talent.

BoiseBYU wrote:
I do not remember Staley as having as good of hands out of the backfield as Harvey has...I am not sure what the stats show, but my memory at least is that Harvey is the better receiver...

Harvey has 102 receptions for 1085 yards. 9 touchdowns. Staley had 86 for 1000 yards, 7 touchdowns.



As receivers, I think they are a wash, but I think Harvey was tremendously under-utilized this past season, largely, I believe, because Anae was trying to protect Harvey as he started the season banged up and didn't want to expose him out in space.



Staley was also less used his junior season, but probably more because he was getting 8 yards a carry on the ground.....no sense putting the ball in the air any more than you have to when you have that going.

snoscythe wrote:

I do not remember Staley as having as good of hands out of the backfield as Harvey has...I am not sure what the stats show, but my memory at least is that Harvey is the better receiver...

Harvey has 102 receptions for 1085 yards. 9 touchdowns. Staley had 86 for 1000 yards, 7 touchdowns.



As receivers, I think they are a wash, but I think Harvey was tremendously under-utilized this past season, largely, I believe, because Anae was trying to protect Harvey as he started the season banged up and didn't want to expose him out in space.



Staley was also less used his junior season, but probably more because he was getting 8 yards a carry on the ground.....no sense putting the ball in the air any more than you have to when you have that going.

Those points make sense...It has always seemed to me that Harvey has "soft" hands when it comes to catching out of the backfield....but Luke's stats aren't too shabby...Statistically it is a wash...

Short_Change wrote:

Short_Change wrote:
Harvey has had 1300-1800 yards total every year he's played. That's more impressive than a Doak Walker award, IMHO.

Harvey's best rushing year was his first year with 1,227. He did have 655 yards receiving that year to give him 1,882 total yards. But he hasn't approached that number since.

Not true. Again you guys need to look at the whole picture. Statistically speaking Harvey had his best rushing season this past season. Had he not missed pretty much the first two games and part of the third game he should have eclipsed 1300 yards rushing.



Harvey has got to be the most underappreciated RB we've ever had. I know a lot of people think highly of him, but I don't think most people realized how good he is and how lucky we've been to have him.

You can't in one breath say Staley wasn't as good because he was injured and then in the next say Harvey had his best year this year but because he only played in 10 games we didn't get to see it.



Bottom line IMO: Staley was the more talented. Unga the more productive. Edge to Harvey in durability. BYU was/is lucky to have had both play in Provo.

kitic77 wrote:

kitic77 wrote:

Harvey has had 1300-1800 yards total every year he's played. That's more impressive than a Doak Walker award, IMHO.

Harvey's best rushing year was his first year with 1,227. He did have 655 yards receiving that year to give him 1,882 total yards. But he hasn't approached that number since.

Not true. Again you guys need to look at the whole picture. Statistically speaking Harvey had his best rushing season this past season. Had he not missed pretty much the first two games and part of the third game he should have eclipsed 1300 yards rushing.



Harvey has got to be the most underappreciated RB we've ever had. I know a lot of people think highly of him, but I don't think most people realized how good he is and how lucky we've been to have him.

You can't in one breath say Staley wasn't as good because he was injured and then in the next say Harvey had his best year this year but because he only played in 10 games we didn't get to see it.



Bottom line IMO: Staley was the more talented. Unga the more productive. Edge to Harvey in durability. BYU was/is lucky to have had both play in Provo.

I never said Staley wasn't better because he was injured. Not sure where you got that. It's a fact that statistically speaking Harvey had his best rushing season last year. You can't argue with that.

double post

snoscythe wrote:

Again he wasn't really that limited his sophomore year. That's exaggerated. He played in 10 games. You really think that with Harvey's running style it's easier to stay healthy? Harvey hits someone hard at least once every time he touches the ball and has probably played hurt his whole career. Staley? Don't really remember him giving or taking many hard hits.

He absolutely was limited his sophomore year. He was never 100% and was fighting nagging ankle and knee sprains all season long.



Whether a running style is easier to stay healthy in is besides the point--how does that factor into which back is better? The fact is that Luke was only healthy for a majority of the season and not splitting carries with a future NFLer in one season--his junior season. Harvey has never split carries with another RB, and he has had future NFL FBs blocking for him each season he has played, something Staley never had.



If you think a healthy Luke Staley couldn't have done better with the same surrounding personnel as Harvey has been blessed with, there's nothing I can say to change that. I just think it's myopic.



Again, I think Luke is the best we've ever had, but I agree that Harvey is the most valuable we have had, in large part due to his durability. But durability is not the same as talent.

I never said Harvey was better because of his running style. You are amazing Sno.



You have to admit that I bring up a good point about his numbers dramatically increasing with Doman in at QB and running the option. I see why a lot of people call Staley the best we've ever had because of 2001. I just think that Harvey is the best because of his overall body of work, despite his difference in running style. I think he'll make it in the NFL as well. Another interesting thing about Staley is that before he got injured in Detroit, he wasn't doing very well. IIRC, he was pretty much fighting for the last RB spot and it wasn't looking good and then he got injured. I remember being excited about Staley in the pro's and then was disappointed that he didn't do well before he got injured. It made me wonder if he wasn't quite as great as I thought he was. Who knows, the same may happen with Harvey but I guess we'll have to wait and see. This is a very interesting topic.

Short_Change wrote:

Short_Change wrote:
Again he wasn't really that limited his sophomore year. That's exaggerated. He played in 10 games. You really think that with Harvey's running style it's easier to stay healthy? Harvey hits someone hard at least once every time he touches the ball and has probably played hurt his whole career. Staley? Don't really remember him giving or taking many hard hits.

He absolutely was limited his sophomore year. He was never 100% and was fighting nagging ankle and knee sprains all season long.



Whether a running style is easier to stay healthy in is besides the point--how does that factor into which back is better? The fact is that Luke was only healthy for a majority of the season and not splitting carries with a future NFLer in one season--his junior season. Harvey has never split carries with another RB, and he has had future NFL FBs blocking for him each season he has played, something Staley never had.



If you think a healthy Luke Staley couldn't have done better with the same surrounding personnel as Harvey has been blessed with, there's nothing I can say to change that. I just think it's myopic.



Again, I think Luke is the best we've ever had, but I agree that Harvey is the most valuable we have had, in large part due to his durability. But durability is not the same as talent.

I never said Harvey was better because of his running style. You are amazing Sno.

I never said you did....in response to your question as to whether it was easier for a back to stay healthy in Unga's sytle vs. Staley's, I simply said that the ability to stay healthy in one style vs. another is besides the point. At not point did I accuse you of saying Harvey was better because of running style. I simply accused you of inserting the non sequitor of ability to stay healthy in a given running style. Your reading comprehension is amazing.



Do you ever care to address Harvey having NFL fullbacks blocking for him in all three seasons, or are you going to continue to ignore it and credit Harvey with everything, while discrediting Staley for playing in an "option" offense which somehow attempted nearly as many passes [486] as BYU has in every year Harvey has played [493, 503, 419] in a "spread option" offense.



Also, what Luke did or didn't do in the NFL is moot at this point. Harvey has done nothing at the NFL, so to go beyond college is to make comparisons is inane.

snoscythe wrote:

Do you ever care to address Harvey having NFL fullbacks blocking for him in all three seasons, or are you going to continue to ignore it and credit Harvey with everything, while discrediting Staley for playing in an "option" offense which somehow attempted nearly as many passes [486] as BYU has in every year Harvey has played [493, 503, 419] in a "spread option" offense.

Sno, I hesitate to post this because we've already hit our point on agreeing to disagree, and originally my point was whether it was "arguable" that Harvey was BYU's best back ever, and I guess the mere fact that this thread is now however many pages simply confirms that point. But are you giving credit to Fui being an NFL fullback in Harvey's freshman year? Because originally you were saying that the only reason Harvey was playing in his freshman year was because Fui was injured. It seems to be a bit of having it both ways to say Fui was injured, therefore Harvey benefited, and he also benefited by having Fui as a blocker....





Anyway, as Craig said, Staley was our babe Ruth and Unga is our Ted Williams. I’m fine with that. You really cannot overstate the importance of Staley winning the Doak Walker award. It’s nice to have the major running back award at a “Q.B.” University. FWIW I see Harvey being an equivalent running back to Ron Dayne.

ABYUFAN wrote:
Are you giving credit to Fui being an NFL fullback in Harvey's freshman year? Because originally you were saying that the only reason Harvey was playing in his freshman year was because Fui was injured. It seems to be a bit of having it both ways to say Fui was injured, therefore Harvey benefited, and he also benefited by having Fui as a blocker....

Manase was the FB Harvey's freshman season.