CougarCorner
Sign in
Archived Topic

Hey hey hey... Goodbye!

by BigCougsFan · 1/29/2010

Sponsored Advertisementad content
L
Lawboy
Wow. Overreaction here. Not surprising though. We love Cougar sports, and want the best to come here, so if they bail, there is going to be some resentment.



Thing is, the kid--yes, the KID--did commit. But the NCAA rules give him the option to change his mind up until LOI day. So, as much as we want to hold him to his commitment, the NCAA says that we can not until that LOI is in hand. Thus, under the rules put in place by teh NCAA, Kona has not done a damn thing wrong. It is the nature of the beast and BYU just has to deal with it better.



For me, the bigger issue is how Bronco chose to handle the situation. He did not try to convince him to stay, play up the pros of BYU over all other schools--which his parents would love--he first went for punishment style--go and you re out. That would rub me wrong as well. BYU is now getting 4 and 5 star kids regularly. Other schools will want those kids, and can still recruit them, even with a verbal in place, and try to sway them. It is not unethical, not immoral. It is 100% completely allowed under NCAA rules. And it is going to happen again. And again. And again. I do not think Bronco can pull a schollie every time it happens because that looks really bad. Vindictive. Angry. I understand Bronco wants guys who want to be at BYU. But tell me, perhaps he tripe to ND, and then gets an even greater commitment to BYU than before. What then? Now, the rumor is we cut bait. That is asinine. Childish. The kid is 18 for crying out loud.



I hope Bronco calls him up personally to smooth this over. I hope the Schwenke's will still converse with Bronco. We need to save this one, play it right for when this happens in the future--and it will--we can show that BYU still thinks it has more to offer, rather than being petulant about it. I understand we have a schollie tied to teh kid, and stopped recruiting others as a result. I also understand that he is 18 and trying to make he best choice for him. It is his choice. And I respect that.



Save the Schwenke commit.
B
BoiseBYU
I would not had as much an issue had Schwenke or any other comit decomitted three months ago, saying essentially I need to know for sure and need to visit further. But I do have a problem with someone making this same decision less than one week. It is grossly unfair to BYU and puts them in a terrible spot. These sort of decisions should not be sprung at the last minute like this. I think Bronco's reaction is just fine.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
M
Mars


Lawboy- Terrible comments. 100% disagree. I'd rather we treated recruits like adults.
L
Lawboy
Mars wrote:


Lawboy- Terrible comments. 100% disagree. I'd rather we treated recruits like adults.




And how many seniors in high school do you know that are actually mature enough to be treated like adults? Few. And most that are, are female. Fact of the matter.



most guys do not pull it together until the mission, if they go. Another fact. Let's deal in realities, not in idealistic fiction land.
F
frdbtr
Lawboy wrote:
Wow. Overreaction here. Not surprising though. We love Cougar sports, and want the best to come here, so if they bail, there is going to be some resentment.



Thing is, the kid--yes, the KID--did commit. But the NCAA rules give him the option to change his mind up until LOI day. So, as much as we want to hold him to his commitment, the NCAA says that we can not until that LOI is in hand. Thus, under the rules put in place by teh NCAA, Kona has not done a damn thing wrong. It is the nature of the beast and BYU just has to deal with it better.



For me, the bigger issue is how Bronco chose to handle the situation. He did not try to convince him to stay, play up the pros of BYU over all other schools--which his parents would love--he first went for punishment style--go and you re out. That would rub me wrong as well. BYU is now getting 4 and 5 star kids regularly. Other schools will want those kids, and can still recruit them, even with a verbal in place, and try to sway them. It is not unethical, not immoral. It is 100% completely allowed under NCAA rules. And it is going to happen again. And again. And again. I do not think Bronco can pull a schollie every time it happens because that looks really bad. Vindictive. Angry. I understand Bronco wants guys who want to be at BYU. But tell me, perhaps he tripe to ND, and then gets an even greater commitment to BYU than before. What then? Now, the rumor is we cut bait. That is asinine. Childish. The kid is 18 for crying out loud.



I hope Bronco calls him up personally to smooth this over. I hope the Schwenke's will still converse with Bronco. We need to save this one, play it right for when this happens in the future--and it will--we can show that BYU still thinks it has more to offer, rather than being petulant about it. I understand we have a schollie tied to teh kid, and stopped recruiting others as a result. I also understand that he is 18 and trying to make he best choice for him. It is his choice. And I respect that.



Save the Schwenke commit.


Here is how I envision the conversation going between Schenke and Bronco.



Bronco: "So you are 100% committed?"

Kona: "Yep coach, 100%"

Bronco "Then don't take the trip, why waste everyone's time and mone?"

Kona: "But I want to go"

Bronco: "Then your scholorship is off the table"





That is all there is to it. If you are 100% committed, there is absolutely no reason to take the trip. Bronco has to pull the schollie to try to find someone else to take this kids place. If he holds the schollie hoping that the kid actually honors his committment then BYU gets screwed when the kid signs with ND on LOI day. Bronco did exactly what needed to be done. This same conversation as held with another kid (Phillips) and Phillips still has his scollie offer. The only difference between the 2 conversations is Phillips realized what he was doing and didn't trip.
Sponsored Advertisementad content
M
Mars
Lawboy wrote:
And how many seniors in high school do you know that are actually mature enough to be treated like adults?

Just because people sometimes make bad decisions doesn't mean we have to treat them like they A- Cannot be trusted to make ANY decisions for themselves or like they B- Cannot be held responsible for any of their decisions. That concept is destructive at best. The "age of accountability" is 8, not 18.
L
Lawboy
Mars wrote:
And how many seniors in high school do you know that are actually mature enough to be treated like adults?

Just because people sometimes make bad decisions doesn't mean we have to treat them like they A- Cannot be trusted to make ANY decisions for themselves or like they B- Cannot be held responsible for any of their decisions. That concept is destructive at best. The "age of accountability" is 8, not 18.


OK. Le's play by your black and white rules then. I think someone also said judge not, lest you be judged. Who was that again? And how do your personal attacks and comments about Kona and his family fit into that commandment again? Look in the mirror. You are acting no different than Kona with your reaction. Perhaps worse. That is the irony here.
G
gmj81
What you're failed to mention Lawboy is this... First of all, his father is part of the problem and if not downright pushing his kid to look elsewhere, he's certainly enabling him to do so. So don't say that his parents "would love" for him to be at BYU because that obviously is not necessarily the case. Secondly, Bronco has done nothing wrong here. It's not like this was the first Kona or any recruit for that matter has heard that if you're committed you don't take you trips, but REALLY don't take trips the week before you've pledged to sign with BYU (or any other school, I don't care that it's BYU necessarily) without even giving them the chance for the last word on the 'off chance' that you change your mind. Apparently nobody remebers Gifford Timothy and precedent Bronco tried to establish with him. He was a no-name recruit so maybe it's easy to see how people forgot. But you better believe recruits will remember this example: how four-star Kona got cold feet a week before signing day and dared face-off with Bronco on whether or not he'd still have an offer from BYU if he tripped elsewhere after he's been repeatedly asked not to.



I'm not going to lie and say I'm not unhappy or disheartened a bit by the latest turn of events. But to say that Bronco is in any way at fault or could have handled the situation better is completely asinine. Bronco is utterley blameless in this regard. Even if you don't agree with him on whether to try to prevent Kona from taking the trip, it's his program and he can do as he wants to. If he doesn't produce results than he'll get canned, plain and simple. But Bronco has seen great success with far less talent than Kona. Bronco in no way needs this kid or owes him anything. If he can't keep his word now, how can Bronco trust him as a player? Bronco offered him a simple choice. And Kona made his.



And yes, these 'kids' are still just that... kids. But can we quit trying to relieve them of any responsibility here? Last I checked, 18 year-olds are classified as legal adults who can vote and can be drafted or choose to serve in the military. 18 year-olds no longer need any parental clearance to make decisions affecting their lives. 18 year-olds are expected to hold jobs and perform them with hard work and integrity or else run the risk of losing them. 18 year-olds are held accountable to the full effect of the law. Plenty of other 'kids' have to make the decision on which school they want to attend and have to do so a lot sooner (sometimes as much as a year or more) than students offered athletic scholarships. Why is it so much harder for these athletes to make the same choice? I'm not saying it's easy. But that's why you don't try to cram it all in at the last minute.



Guess what, I procrastinated my application process to BYU thinking I was a shoe in with my grades and test scores. So when I got wait-listed out of high school, did I complain about it? You better believe I was upset but the only person I had to be upset with was myself. If I had applied even a couple months before the application deadline I almost assuredly would have been admitted. But because I waited til the last minute, I got left in the cold. This situation is no different.
L
Lawboy
With all due respect, Kona committed when he was 17. And has signed nothing. I understand wanting recruits to hold firm to their verbals. I also understand that Florida, Florida State, Texas, Oklahoma and every other school loses commitments, so let;s not act like BYU is any different. When t comes to recruiting, we are in the same boat as every other school in the NCAA.



What did BYU and Bronco gain by pulling an offer from Kona? Did we get another recruit out of it? And if you think that what Bronco did is gong to stop so other kid in the future from doing this, you are naive. It will happen again. 100% guaranteed. Pulling the offer will not be a deterrence in the future for every kid. It just won't.
G
gmj81
Lawboy wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
And how many seniors in high school do you know that are actually mature enough to be treated like adults?

Just because people sometimes make bad decisions doesn't mean we have to treat them like they A- Cannot be trusted to make ANY decisions for themselves or like they B- Cannot be held responsible for any of their decisions. That concept is destructive at best. The "age of accountability" is 8, not 18.


OK. Le's play by your black and white rules then. I think someone also said judge not, lest you be judged. Who was that again? And how do your personal attacks and comments about Kona and his family fit into that commandment again? Look in the mirror. You are acting no different than Kona with your reaction. Perhaps worse. That is the irony here.


I don't see a lot of personal attacks really. What I do see is may people questioning their integrity and honesty of Kona and his father who have gone on record and shared the whole story. It's not like people are making things up here. They themselves have presented the facts. They may see things a little differently but that doesn't change what the facts of the story are.



People have to make judgments every day on a person's character, whether that is hire them for a job, give them a loan or even simply to decide to be their friend. No one is judging the Schwenke's chances of whether they'll go to heaven here. They're making judgments on whether or not this is a player we want at BYU. Frankly, none of our judgments really matter at all in the matter. Only Bronco's does. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't formulate our opinions from the evidence at hand and make our judgments about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.
Sponsored Advertisementad content
L
Lawboy
gmj81 wrote:
Frankly, none of our judgments really matter at all in the matter. Only Bronco's does. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't formulate our opinions from the evidence at hand and make our judgments about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

And to that, I will quote Mars. Just because we can, does not mean that we should.
G
gmj81
Lawboy wrote:
With all due respect, Kona committed when he was 17. And has signed nothing. I understand wanting recruits to hold firm to their verbals. I also understand that Florida, Florida State, Texas, Oklahoma and every other school loses commitments, so let;s not act like BYU is any different. When t comes to recruiting, we are in the same boat as every other school in the NCAA.



What did BYU and Bronco gain by pulling an offer from Kona? Did we get another recruit out of it? And if you think that what Bronco did is gong to stop so other kid in the future from doing this, you are naive. It will happen again. 100% guaranteed. Pulling the offer will not be a deterrence in the future for every kid. It just won't.


I'm not 100% positive but I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Kona would have been eligible to be a "mission-first" kid and at one point seriously was considering that route. But regardless of whether he's 17, 18 or 19 he should be able to and should be expected to keep his commitments.
G
gmj81
Lawboy wrote:
Frankly, none of our judgments really matter at all in the matter. Only Bronco's does. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't formulate our opinions from the evidence at hand and make our judgments about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

And to that, I will quote Mars. Just because we can, does not mean that we should.


By that logic, are you judging those of us for judging?
J
jonnylingo
Lawboy wrote:
Frankly, none of our judgments really matter at all in the matter. Only Bronco's does. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't formulate our opinions from the evidence at hand and make our judgments about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

And to that, I will quote Mars. Just because we can, does not mean that we should.


word.
B
bigbluepuma
Lawboy wrote:
Wow. Overreaction here. Not surprising though. We love Cougar sports, and want the best to come here, so if they bail, there is going to be some resentment.



Thing is, the kid--yes, the KID--did commit. But the NCAA rules give him the option to change his mind up until LOI day. So, as much as we want to hold him to his commitment, the NCAA says that we can not until that LOI is in hand. Thus, under the rules put in place by teh NCAA, Kona has not done a damn thing wrong. It is the nature of the beast and BYU just has to deal with it better.



For me, the bigger issue is how Bronco chose to handle the situation. He did not try to convince him to stay, play up the pros of BYU over all other schools--which his parents would love--he first went for punishment style--go and you re out. That would rub me wrong as well. BYU is now getting 4 and 5 star kids regularly. Other schools will want those kids, and can still recruit them, even with a verbal in place, and try to sway them. It is not unethical, not immoral. It is 100% completely allowed under NCAA rules. And it is going to happen again. And again. And again. I do not think Bronco can pull a schollie every time it happens because that looks really bad. Vindictive. Angry. I understand Bronco wants guys who want to be at BYU. But tell me, perhaps he tripe to ND, and then gets an even greater commitment to BYU than before. What then? Now, the rumor is we cut bait. That is asinine. Childish. The kid is 18 for crying out loud.



I hope Bronco calls him up personally to smooth this over. I hope the Schwenke's will still converse with Bronco. We need to save this one, play it right for when this happens in the future--and it will--we can show that BYU still thinks it has more to offer, rather than being petulant about it. I understand we have a schollie tied to teh kid, and stopped recruiting others as a result. I also understand that he is 18 and trying to make he best choice for him. It is his choice. And I respect that.



Save the Schwenke commit.




All this is very true IF this is just "something that happened." It doesn't appear that that is the case. He seems to have been "dating throughout his whole engagement." Legal? yes. Ethical? by general definiton. Honest? depends. It would appear that Bronco has been talking to him for some time about his "solid commitment." I think that the time had come when Bronco knew that KS was going before a great salesman with no chance for Bronco to counter (great timing by ND). Bronco could see the writing on the wall. Taking a stand was way better than another signing day surprise (which was looking like a big possibility).



The other factor is that BYU isn't other universities. When BYU tried to recruit like other universities, well, we know what happened (Crowton). BYU counts on a different type of recruit with a different type of commitment. If kona had been as committed as he claimed to be, he would have recognized the importance of doing what was asked of him by his future coach. Don't feel too sorry for the way he was treated. The

trip(e) to ND may have turned out well for BYU, but it mat also just have turned into just another Teo.
Sponsored Advertisementad content
G
gmj81
More light keeps being shed on the story too.



http://byu.scout.com/a.z?s=338&p=8&c=1&nid=3217015



Kona, who less than a week ago was supposedly 100% committed to BYU and had no official offers from UW or ND has now received offers and has scheduled visits to both. All this less than a week before signing day. You think this has all just occurred in the last 24 hours? I'm not saying it's impossible but given that he just got the news from Bronco yesterday at the airport about running the risk of losing his BYU offer if he went ahead with his trip to South Bend. I'd say it's unlikely. He's had other coaches in his home the past few weeks (not on the BYU staff) and has been entertaining other suitors. What once was just a chance to "get off the rock" and "visit old friends" in South Bend has now very conveniently turned into two trips, one to ND and one to UW. All this despite behind "100% committed" to BYU and saying he'll still come to Provo if they'll have him despite all the recent "ugliness". And which friends is he going to see at UW now?
B
bigbluepuma
frdbtr wrote:
Wow. Overreaction here. Not surprising though. We love Cougar sports, and want the best to come here, so if they bail, there is going to be some resentment.



Thing is, the kid--yes, the KID--did commit. But the NCAA rules give him the option to change his mind up until LOI day. So, as much as we want to hold him to his commitment, the NCAA says that we can not until that LOI is in hand. Thus, under the rules put in place by teh NCAA, Kona has not done a damn thing wrong. It is the nature of the beast and BYU just has to deal with it better.



For me, the bigger issue is how Bronco chose to handle the situation. He did not try to convince him to stay, play up the pros of BYU over all other schools--which his parents would love--he first went for punishment style--go and you re out. That would rub me wrong as well. BYU is now getting 4 and 5 star kids regularly. Other schools will want those kids, and can still recruit them, even with a verbal in place, and try to sway them. It is not unethical, not immoral. It is 100% completely allowed under NCAA rules. And it is going to happen again. And again. And again. I do not think Bronco can pull a schollie every time it happens because that looks really bad. Vindictive. Angry. I understand Bronco wants guys who want to be at BYU. But tell me, perhaps he tripe to ND, and then gets an even greater commitment to BYU than before. What then? Now, the rumor is we cut bait. That is asinine. Childish. The kid is 18 for crying out loud.



I hope Bronco calls him up personally to smooth this over. I hope the Schwenke's will still converse with Bronco. We need to save this one, play it right for when this happens in the future--and it will--we can show that BYU still thinks it has more to offer, rather than being petulant about it. I understand we have a schollie tied to teh kid, and stopped recruiting others as a result. I also understand that he is 18 and trying to make he best choice for him. It is his choice. And I respect that.



Save the Schwenke commit.


Here is how I envision the conversation going between Schenke and Bronco.



Bronco: "So you are 100% committed?"

Kona: "Yep coach, 100%"

Bronco "Then don't take the trip, why waste everyone's time and mone?"

Kona: "But I want to go"

Bronco: "Then your scholorship is off the table"





That is all there is to it. If you are 100% committed, there is absolutely no reason to take the trip. Bronco has to pull the schollie to try to find someone else to take this kids place. If he holds the schollie hoping that the kid actually honors his committment then BYU gets screwed when the kid signs with ND on LOI day. Bronco did exactly what needed to be done. This same conversation as held with another kid (Phillips) and Phillips still has his scollie offer. The only difference between the 2 conversations is Phillips realized what he was doing and didn't trip.

AMEN!
G
gmj81
bigbluepuma wrote:
Wow. Overreaction here. Not surprising though. We love Cougar sports, and want the best to come here, so if they bail, there is going to be some resentment.



Thing is, the kid--yes, the KID--did commit. But the NCAA rules give him the option to change his mind up until LOI day. So, as much as we want to hold him to his commitment, the NCAA says that we can not until that LOI is in hand. Thus, under the rules put in place by teh NCAA, Kona has not done a damn thing wrong. It is the nature of the beast and BYU just has to deal with it better.



For me, the bigger issue is how Bronco chose to handle the situation. He did not try to convince him to stay, play up the pros of BYU over all other schools--which his parents would love--he first went for punishment style--go and you re out. That would rub me wrong as well. BYU is now getting 4 and 5 star kids regularly. Other schools will want those kids, and can still recruit them, even with a verbal in place, and try to sway them. It is not unethical, not immoral. It is 100% completely allowed under NCAA rules. And it is going to happen again. And again. And again. I do not think Bronco can pull a schollie every time it happens because that looks really bad. Vindictive. Angry. I understand Bronco wants guys who want to be at BYU. But tell me, perhaps he tripe to ND, and then gets an even greater commitment to BYU than before. What then? Now, the rumor is we cut bait. That is asinine. Childish. The kid is 18 for crying out loud.



I hope Bronco calls him up personally to smooth this over. I hope the Schwenke's will still converse with Bronco. We need to save this one, play it right for when this happens in the future--and it will--we can show that BYU still thinks it has more to offer, rather than being petulant about it. I understand we have a schollie tied to teh kid, and stopped recruiting others as a result. I also understand that he is 18 and trying to make he best choice for him. It is his choice. And I respect that.



Save the Schwenke commit.




All this is very true IF this is just "something that happened." It doesn't appear that that is the case. He seems to have been "dating throughout his whole engagement." Legal? yes. Ethical? by general definiton. Honest? depends. It would appear that Bronco has been talking to him for some time about his "solid commitment." I think that the time had come when Bronco knew that KS was going before a great salesman with no chance for Bronco to counter (great timing by ND). Bronco could see the writing on the wall. Taking a stand was way better than another signing day surprise (which was looking like a big possibility).



The other factor is that BYU isn't other universities. When BYU tried to recruit like other universities, well, we know what happened (Crowton). BYU counts on a different type of recruit with a different type of commitment. If kona had been as committed as he claimed to be, he would have recognized the importance of doing what was asked of him by his future coach. Don't feel too sorry for the way he was treated. The

trip(e) to ND may have turned out well for BYU, but it mat also just have turned into just another Teo.


Word.
L
Lawboy
gmj81 wrote:
gmj81 wrote:
Frankly, none of our judgments really matter at all in the matter. Only Bronco's does. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't formulate our opinions from the evidence at hand and make our judgments about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

And to that, I will quote Mars. Just because we can, does not mean that we should.


By that logic, are you judging those of us for judging?


Listen. I want Kona to come to BYU and wear the blue. Still want it. But his college choice is a huge decision. Yes, he made a verbal commit. yes, I would love for him to honor it. But yes, I understand he is wanting to test the waters elsewhere first as well. It is his choice. It will be his life. And the fact is, he is a brother in the faith, so I support his success wherever he goes, unless he goes to the U, then i want to see him lose. But I digress. Point is, I will not take it personally if he bails. I will not worry about the future of BYU football over 1 kid. the trend is 1 kid per year that commits do not hold firm. And I will not villainize them, or their parents over it. Because you never know what may happen later. Just ask Kaveinga.
B
bigbluepuma
Lawboy wrote:
With all due respect, Kona committed when he was 17. And has signed nothing. I understand wanting recruits to hold firm to their verbals. I also understand that Florida, Florida State, Texas, Oklahoma and every other school loses commitments, so let;s not act like BYU is any different. When t comes to recruiting, we are in the same boat as every other school in the NCAA.



What did BYU and Bronco gain by pulling an offer from Kona? Did we get another recruit out of it? And if you think that what Bronco did is gong to stop so other kid in the future from doing this, you are naive. It will happen again. 100% guaranteed. Pulling the offer will not be a deterrence in the future for every kid. It just won't.


It will for some.
Page 2 of 4
This is an archived topic from the original CougarCorner forum. New replies are not accepted.