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Hey hey hey... Goodbye!

by BigCougsFan · 1/29/2010

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gmj81
I still want Kona too. But that doesn't change the fact that he has acted with less than high integrity lately. That could have still been fixed though. All he had to do was shore up his commitment to Bronco. It appears he chose not to.



You are the owner of a company. You want to hire a very impressive individual who can greatly help your company. You offer him a job and he accepts but delays his first day of work. Come to find out, he used your offer to go out and shop for more and higher paying ones too even though he already accepted the job you've offered. A couple of years down the road, he comes back and wants a job again. Knowing what you know now about his character, do you offer him again? Or do you make a judgment that he could very well up and leave you again once something better comes along?



Again, I don't see anyone villainizing anyone here. There has been a post or two (not by me) saying something to the effect that he "must be a drinker" too or something to that effect but it seems they were mostly in jest. The only thing we're questioning is the integrity of the individual's involved. Bronco's remains high. The Schwenke's not so much. If that's villainizing than the Schwenke's have villainized themselves. It's their own quotes and comments that have revealed the truth of the story here.
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Lawboy
Again, I refer you to Uona Kaveniga. He fits the scenario you described perfectly, and Bronco took him back. Do not burn bridges. Do not take the hardline with recruits. They make come back to you.



I just think there is much to this story than any of us know, including things going on with the BYU staff end. And per BYU policy, we will never know the whole story.



By the way, what if on LOI day, we get Kona's letter. What then to all the fans calling them liars, saying the Schwenke's lack integrity. What then? This will not be over until LOI day.
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Sammich
Lawboy wrote:
By the way, what if on LOI day, we get Kona's letter. What then to all the fans calling them liars, saying the Schwenke's lack integrity. What then? This will not be over until LOI day.

Doesn't change anything, they were still dishonest. Don't worry, most of us forgive quickly (e.g. Kaveinga).
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bigbluepuma
Lawboy wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
Frankly, none of our judgments really matter at all in the matter. Only Bronco's does. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't formulate our opinions from the evidence at hand and make our judgments about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

And to that, I will quote Mars. Just because we can, does not mean that we should.


By that logic, are you judging those of us for judging?


Listen. I want Kona to come to BYU and wear the blue. Still want it. But his college choice is a huge decision. Yes, he made a verbal commit. yes, I would love for him to honor it. But yes, I understand he is wanting to test the waters elsewhere first as well. It is his choice. It will be his life. And the fact is, he is a brother in the faith, so I support his success wherever he goes, unless he goes to the U, then i want to see him lose. But I digress. Point is, I will not take it personally if he bails. I will not worry about the future of BYU football over 1 kid. the trend is 1 kid per year that commits do not hold firm. And I will not villainize them, or their parents over it. Because you never know what may happen later. Just ask Kaveinga.




Bronco didn't threaten to sue him over his choices. He simply said that enough is enough. It's time to fish or cut bait. The time to test the waters has passed. That has been going on for some time, and we need to know where we stand with signing day upon us. Kona and his parents felt that they were above that. That is the bottom line.
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gmj81
Lawboy wrote:

What did BYU and Bronco gain by pulling an offer from Kona? Did we get another recruit out of it? And if you think that what Bronco did is gong to stop so other kid in the future from doing this, you are naive. It will happen again. 100% guaranteed. Pulling the offer will not be a deterrence in the future for every kid. It just won't.


Don't be so sure. They're are still plenty of kids, maybe not as talented as Kona that we could give that offer to. Ofa Latu would be a one scenario or Handsome Tanielu. It doesn't even have to be one that will play right away. It could be that Dallas Lloyd has a change of heart and approaches BYU telling them he'll go straight out on a mission in order to get the offer. His circumstances have certainly changed at Stanford as they have signed other QB recruits besides him and a mission would put more than enough distance between he and Jake.



But even if all it does was set a precedent than it was worth it. I'm sure it will happen again but now Bronco point to the past and tell the recruits, "I told you it would happen, I've shown it before and I will show it again if I have to." So it will be a deterrent for some; for those that really want to be here anyway which is the only ones I'm concerned about. You gotta separate the wheat from the chaff somehow.



And if you are taking the Schwenke's at their word, then you are naive. Read between the lines or listen to the other accounts before making a decision. Remember, Bronco can't tell his side of the story as he can't talk about potential recruits.
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gmj81
Lawboy wrote:
Again, I refer you to Uona Kaveniga. He fits the scenario you described perfectly, and Bronco took him back. Do not burn bridges. Do not take the hardline with recruits. They make come back to you.



I just think there is much to this story than any of us know, including things going on with the BYU staff end. And per BYU policy, we will never know the whole story.



By the way, what if on LOI day, we get Kona's letter. What then to all the fans calling them liars, saying the Schwenke's lack integrity. What then? This will not be over until LOI day.


When you act in the right, you've got nothing to worry about. Things that were said by both Bronco and the fans were infinitely worse about Uona than anything that's been said about Kona. But where is he now? Hmmm... here in Provo because he realized he made a mistake. He's paying for it now though isn't he? Two years with but scant playing time and now no scholarship for at least the next 6 months. But he made the necessary corrections for which I applaud him. Kona could do the same and all would be forgotten. But there's no denying that the Schwenke's have not had much integrity the past couple of months at least. And I'm sorry that's not judgment, that's a fact.



Have you even read what they've said yet with their own mouth? Because is doesn't sound like you have. I invite you to do so:



http://byu.scout.com/2/941915.html



There's more in earlier articles which are insider ones that I won't link here but that really should suffice.



Now contrast that with Drew Phillips' reactions:



http://byu.scout.com/2/941892.html
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frdbtr
Lawboy wrote:
Again, I refer you to Uona Kaveniga. He fits the scenario you described perfectly, and Bronco took him back. Do not burn bridges. Do not take the hardline with recruits. They make come back to you.



I just think there is much to this story than any of us know, including things going on with the BYU staff end. And per BYU policy, we will never know the whole story.



By the way, what if on LOI day, we get Kona's letter. What then to all the fans calling them liars, saying the Schwenke's lack integrity. What then? This will not be over until LOI day.


If the Schollie offer ends up being still there and Kona signs a LOI and faxes it to BYU, then I will be happy that he is a cougar. From what I have read though, there is no more schollie offer.
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bigbluepuma
gmj81 wrote:

What did BYU and Bronco gain by pulling an offer from Kona? Did we get another recruit out of it? And if you think that what Bronco did is gong to stop so other kid in the future from doing this, you are naive. It will happen again. 100% guaranteed. Pulling the offer will not be a deterrence in the future for every kid. It just won't.


Don't be so sure. They're are still plenty of kids, maybe not as talented as Kona that we could give that offer to. Ofa Latu would be a one scenario or Handsome Tanielu. It doesn't even have to be one that will play right away. It could be that Dallas Lloyd has a change of heart and approaches BYU telling them he'll go straight out on a mission in order to get the offer. His circumstances have certainly changed at Stanford as they have signed other QB recruits besides him and a mission would put more than enough distance between he and Jake.



But even if all it does was set a precedent than it was worth it. I'm sure it will happen again but now Bronco point to the past and tell the recruits, "I told you it would happen, I've shown it before and I will show it again if I have to." So it will be a deterrent for some; for those that really want to be here anyway which is the only ones I'm concerned about. You gotta separate the wheat from the chaff somehow.



And if you are taking the Schwenke's at their word, then you are naive. Read between the lines or listen to the other accounts before making a decision. Remember, Bronco can't tell his side of the story as he can't talk about potential recruits.


Bronco will never tell his side of the story, but you can be sure that he didn't suddenly blindside Schwenkys with this. They made the poor decisions, not Bronco. The precident is extemely important. As I said before, we have to be different from all other universities, because we ARE different. This will pay the same kind of future dividends that his willingness to bench or suspend star players for violations has paid.
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gmj81
These are the facts:



1. Kona Schwenke is a tremendous player

2. Kona was offered by BYU and had it explained to him that he's not to accept until he's 100% sure and committed

3. Scholarship offers to BYU started quickly being taken off the table by recruits were eager to play for the Cougars

4. Kona also decided to take one of those scholarship offers

5. Throughout the process the "commits" have been regularly reminded of what "commitment" means... which includes no more trips

6. Kona started receiving in-home visits and scheduling more officials after his commitment to BYU and less than a month before LOI day.



Those are the facts. Can someone tell me where the integrity is in there? Because I don't see it. And I don't understand how I'm making false judgment by pointing that out.



Also, it just occurred to me that the JST adds a lot the Savior's "Judge not lest ye be judged" comment. It certainly adds a little bit to our discussion here.
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Lawboy
I had read the comments. And I was troubled by the fact that someone told the Schwenke's that if Kona took the ND trip, it meant he could not be trusted to keep the HC. I beleive it was Bronco. That is a leap and a rash conclusion, and is totally unfair. The HC is not an axe to wield. I do not agree with it at all. I understand BYU wants recruits to honor those commits, that BYU holds their spot and stops recruiting other kids as a result. I see that. Every school does that. What other schools do not do is throw an HC in their face and challenge their integrity like that. Sorry, but that is burning a bridge. Pull the commit if you must. Tell the kid you held a spot for them and trusted them to not burn them. But do not use the HC in that way. that is not right.
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gmj81
Lawboy wrote:
I had read the comments. And I was troubled by the fact that someone told the Schwenke's that if Kona took the ND trip, it meant he could not be trusted to keep the HC. I beleive it was Bronco. That is a leap and a rash conclusion, and is totally unfair. The HC is not an axe to wield. I do not agree with it at all. I understand BYU wants recruits to honor those commits, that BYU holds their spot and stops recruiting other kids as a result. I see that. Every school does that. What other schools do not do is throw an HC in their face and challenge their integrity like that. Sorry, but that is burning a bridge. Pull the commit if you must. Tell the kid you held a spot for them and trusted them to not burn them. But do not use the HC in that way. that is not right.


Do you assume that Bronco meant he wouldn't live a chaste life or would drink or smoke? The honor code is about more than just living the law of chastity and the Word of Wisdom. In fact that first word there, "honor" is defined as "a keen sense of ethical conduct; integrity." If he can't keep his commitment as Bronco explained it, no matter how he explained it, as long as he demonstrated consistency in explaining it (fact) then I don't see how that is honorable on Kona's part and thus how he can have much integrity. I don't see how Bronco's explaining that to Kona "wields an axe". Better he learn that lesson now than commit to BYU and then follow in the footsteps of other HC breakers, even if it is just for not telling the full truth or breaking commitments. But that's the last I'm going to say on the matter.



And the offer has already been pulled according to Kona's actions. Again he was given a choice and he made it. But I thought you've been arguing that he shouldn't have pulled the offer until signing day. But it's not much good "pulling it" after he's already signed with someone else. Little good does that do for your "precedent".
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Lawboy
You missed my point. And it was simply that the HC should not be used as a axe in that way. Sorry, but that is wrong. People on this board have ripped coach Whit for taking a negative approach with recruiting as well, and that is a negative approach. It smacks of sour grapes. I love Bronco, but I do not think he is perfect. If he in fact took that approach, I think he got it wrong this time. Nothing Kona or his parents have done would cause him to have HC issues while at BYU. And it is an unfair leap to put that on him in that way.



By the way, I still do not think BYU should have pulled the offer. What if he went to ND and UW, and still wants BYU?
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beauso79
Lawboy wrote:
You missed my point. And it was simply that the HC should not be used as a axe in that way. Sorry, but that is wrong. People on this board have ripped coach Whit for taking a negative approach with recruiting as well, and that is a negative approach. It smacks of sour grapes. I love Bronco, but I do not think he is perfect. If he in fact took that approach, I think he got it wrong this time. Nothing Kona or his parents have done would cause him to have HC issues while at BYU. And it is an unfair leap to put that on him in that way.



By the way, I still do not think BYU should have pulled the offer. What if he went to ND and UW, and still wants BYU?


Maybe Bronco will let him walk-on and earn a schollie in the future :D :D
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bigbluepuma
Lawboy wrote:
I had read the comments. And I was troubled by the fact that someone told the Schwenke's that if Kona took the ND trip, it meant he could not be trusted to keep the HC. I beleive it was Bronco. That is a leap and a rash conclusion, and is totally unfair. The HC is not an axe to wield. I do not agree with it at all. I understand BYU wants recruits to honor those commits, that BYU holds their spot and stops recruiting other kids as a result. I see that. Every school does that. What other schools do not do is throw an HC in their face and challenge their integrity like that. Sorry, but that is burning a bridge. Pull the commit if you must. Tell the kid you held a spot for them and trusted them to not burn them. But do not use the HC in that way. that is not right.


Exactly why wouldn't showing a lack of integrity raise red flags about living the honor code? Aren't honor and integrity similies? You seem to think that what is mentioned in one statement happened in a vacuum. This goes WAAAAYYY deeper than just what happened in the airport phone conversation.



“We told Coach Mendenhall that Kona is 100 percent committed to BYU and that taking a trip to Notre Dame didn’t detract from his commitment, that he just wanted the opportunity to visit some friends,” informed Kona’s father McKay. “Kona has prayed about it and the answer he received was that BYU was the school he needed to sign with and I told Bronco that, so it’s hard for me to understand." (from the linked article)



It absolutely does, and ND KNOWS that it does! That is why they were willing to pay to have him come out there despite his "solid " commitment. They understand the persuasiveness of a good salesman and the value of timing the sales pitch at just the right time. Bronco understands too, which is why he said enough is enough. It is plain that both ND and Bronco were right. He wasn't fully committed, so ND has the chance they knew they had. Nothing dumb about ND, and nothing dumb about Bronco, but something less than honorable about Schwenkys.
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gmj81
Lawboy wrote:
You missed my point. And it was simply that the HC should not be used as a axe in that way. Sorry, but that is wrong. People on this board have ripped coach Whit for taking a negative approach with recruiting as well, and that is a negative approach. It smacks of sour grapes. I love Bronco, but I do not think he is perfect. If he in fact took that approach, I think he got it wrong this time. Nothing Kona or his parents have done would cause him to have HC issues while at BYU. And it is an unfair leap to put that on him in that way.



By the way, I still do not think BYU should have pulled the offer. What if he went to ND and UW, and still wants BYU?


Well, I guess that's where we disagree because while I don't think Bronco is perfect, I don't think it's unfair for him to expect his commits to already be living the HC. And if he isn't able to keep his word, the that's clearly a violation of the honor code, ticky tack as you may think it to be.



Kyle Van Noy was also expected to be living the HC prior to his enrollment which is why he had to delay a year. Drew Phillips was given the same choice that Kona was. Neither of them balked at it though. And both have gone on record as saying that Bronco has already made them a better person because of it.



Once you're in the program, Bronco will work with you if you run afoul the HC but if you dare lie to him, you're done. That is the unforgivable sin to Bronco. That is why Shiloah Te'o is no longer a Cougar. He had multiple alcohol related violations but when he lied to Bronco's face about getting a DUI, that was the breaking point. I don't know if Shiloah is bitter about that (like some on this forum assume) but his parents certainly weren't and went on record to thank Bronco for his holding their son accountable for his actions.



Apparently there's plenty of folks who have like Bronco's approach, even ones who were a target of it. But I guess the Schwenke's don't. And that's where the roads part. End of story.



And if he still wanted BYU after visiting ND and UW, that would sure be a tough way to learn that he should have accepted Bronco at his word when he told Kona that if he went, his offer would be pulled. It would be a shame to go through all that and realize that BYU was the place he needed to be, just like his prayers had supposedly confirmed. Maybe it would be good for him to learn that lesson that you can trust the spirit and trust men you looked up to to guide you in the right direction without having to go through the pain and loss yourself.



Boy, when I was younger it sure would have been nice to go to some of the parties at my high school and "have a little fun" with the non-member girls. But I trusted my parents and leaders and prayers when they told me that it would not be good for me. What would have been the harm. There's nothing wrong with a little make-out now and then right? And maybe nothing would have happened had I gone or maybe I would have been able to withstand further temptation. But why tempt it at all if you've already received your answer and advice from those you trust and to whom you don't want to break a commitment?
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Mars
Lawboy wrote:
What did BYU and Bronco gain by pulling an offer from Kona? Did we get another recruit out of it?
We gained 29.



Be practical. BYU has lost 2 recruits this year. Utah has lost 8. You don't think that BYU's policy - asking kids to not commit until they are sure (to actually "recruit" BYU and sell Bronco on why they want to be here), and to not trip afterwards if they want to keep their schollie - have NOTHING to do with that amazing retention rate?
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clemdiggitydog1
i totally agree with Lawboy here and believe#1,these are 17 and 18 year olds who will never again quite possibly be able to have the prospect of being fawned over in this fashion,and that in itself would present a very 'tempting' scenario for these kids[read the DP explanation of whty he had contemplated taking this trip despite being"100% comitted"],and #2,as this kid's father I would have a very hard time with being told by Bronco, IF it's true, that my son and I couldn't take this trip to ND without having our motives being impugned as dishonerable.It is NOT a violation of the NCAA rules for him to trip to ND in this manner.#3, and then to have Bronco suggest,IF he did, that taking this trip to ND would be predictive of his ability to live the honor code in the future is a real strong arm tactic that I would definitely resist and would be in the words of Mckay "dissapointing",i think you could also say repugnant.It does make Bronco look petulant, IF it happened as the father is reporting,and further makes him look like a jilted lover who's saying "ND aint doin"this to me again so there".this is what recruiting bigtime athletes is all about,unfortunately or not,so if we're playing in that game then better get used to it.
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Mars
Lawboy wrote:
someone told the Schwenke's that if Kona took the ND trip, it meant he could not be trusted to keep the HC. I beleive it was Bronco. That is a leap and a rash conclusion, and is totally unfair. The HC is not an axe to wield. I do not agree with it at all.

How dare Bronco suggest that if a kid doesn't honor his commitments he may not be able to keep his commitments? :utard:
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bigbluepuma
Mars wrote:
What did BYU and Bronco gain by pulling an offer from Kona? Did we get another recruit out of it?
We gained 29.



Be practical. BYU has lost 2 recruits this year. Utah has lost 8. You don't think that BYU's policy - asking kids to not commit until they are sure (to actually "recruit" BYU and sell Bronco on why they want to be here), and to not trip afterwards if they want to keep their schollie - have NOTHING to do with that amazing retention rate?

Well said. Also keep in mind that BYU has much more desirable recruits to poach. 8) 8)
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Lawboy
Mars wrote:
someone told the Schwenke's that if Kona took the ND trip, it meant he could not be trusted to keep the HC. I beleive it was Bronco. That is a leap and a rash conclusion, and is totally unfair. The HC is not an axe to wield. I do not agree with it at all.

How dare Bronco suggest that if a kid doesn't honor his commitments he may not be able to keep his commitments? :utard:


I sure hope that you are perfect Mars. For your own sake. And for the sake of all people around you.
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