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Why I Detest The Honor Code

by Y 4 Ever · 4/22/2010

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S
Schmoe
I am not holier than anyone, but I'm probably smarter than some, and I'd say that if you detest the honor code then you are a DUMBASS. This wasn't directed at anyone specific, just everyone in general that feels that way. That's all I'm gonna say, you can call me names back all you will, but I stand by what I've said. Have a lovely day, gentlemen.
C
CougarClaw
The Honor Code, properly understood, is empowering and strengthening. To understand that, you have to have lived it and been surrounded by those committed to uphold it as well. Just like any high standard, it is mocked by those who are ignorant enough to think that lower standards are liberating.



One of the reasons Bronco has been so successful off the field is that he has taken this beacon and used it like it should be used. Set on a hill for all to see. Mock it if you will, but it is a source of strength and spiritual power for those who swear by it and uphold it.



Mock Bronco if you disagree with his whole-hearted embrace of one of the best recruiting tools BYU has available.

You can mock Karl G Maeser who started the first versions of it and is more brilliant than any of us will ever be.

You can also mock the BYU General Board of Trustees who run the institution (do I need to mention who they are?) for being ... now what was it ... acne-faced pencil pushers?



If I meet someone who has decided their spirituality was being affected by TV or some other activity that I loved and that individual decided to leave that activity behind, I laud their decision-- not mock them. Even if I'm not there yet; their success has no bearing on my decisions and if they can live a more fulfilled life living stricter laws, than I can leave the polarizing attacks to others who don't understand.
M
Mars
33311710 wrote:
for those of you who I just pissed off - who will BLINDLY support ANYTHING that comes out of BYU Headquarters regardless of rationale or reason...

AKA "The LDS Church"? :skeptic:
M
Mars
Florwood wrote:
I agree the atmosphere around it could be cleaned up. Spying and reporting as a virtue don't need to be a part of the system, for example.

Yeah. Snitches Get Stitches. F Da Police.
M
Mars
Lawboy wrote:
#1 argument against the Honor Code is the same it has always been. It is not the Code itself per se, nor is it the way the code is enforced when it is violated. It is that the "Honor" aspect of the code is not always the driving force. Not when you have students telling on each other, spies to enforce it, etc. What is the "honor" in that? And let's not act like that does not happen, because it absolutely does. If that component got removed, it be more like the rest of the world that LDS members live in. But with that component at BYU, it creates a mini-Gestapo influence that is simply not needed.

It's like those Neighborhood Watch Nazis that will call the cops on anyone they see breaking into someone's house, or busting out car lights. Those Gestapo freaks make me sick! :sick:
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M
Mars
Lawboy wrote:
As the wise Lord Acton stated "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Draw your own conclusions on that. Balance, opposition in all things, etc.

Oh no! Does this mean that eventually President Monson will become the most corrupt member of the LDS Church? :bug:
L
Lawboy
Mars wrote:
#1 argument against the Honor Code is the same it has always been. It is not the Code itself per se, nor is it the way the code is enforced when it is violated. It is that the "Honor" aspect of the code is not always the driving force. Not when you have students telling on each other, spies to enforce it, etc. What is the "honor" in that? And let's not act like that does not happen, because it absolutely does. If that component got removed, it be more like the rest of the world that LDS members live in. But with that component at BYU, it creates a mini-Gestapo influence that is simply not needed.

It's like those Neighborhood Watch Nazis that will call the cops on anyone they see breaking into someone's house, or busting out car lights. Those Gestapo freaks make me sick! :sick:


Let me know the last time someone got kicked out of the neighborhood for not wanting to participate in the watch program. Thanks.
L
Lawboy
Mars wrote:
As the wise Lord Acton stated "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Draw your own conclusions on that. Balance, opposition in all things, etc.

Oh no! Does this mean that eventually President Monson will become the most corrupt member of the LDS Church? :bug:


So you are saying that President Monson attends BYU and spied on his co-students? And here I thought he counseled his flock, then let them exercise their own agency based upon the standards set out in the scriptures. Which is exactly right. Again, nothing wrong with the HC, as it is an ideal based upon correct principles. But let me know when you find one of your neighbors spying on you and reporting back to Church HQ, cuz it ain't gonna happen, and thus, does not need to at BYU either.
A
ABYUFAN
Lawboy wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
As the wise Lord Acton stated "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Draw your own conclusions on that. Balance, opposition in all things, etc.

Oh no! Does this mean that eventually President Monson will become the most corrupt member of the LDS Church? :bug:


So you are saying that President Monson attends BYU and spied on his co-students? And here I thought he counseled his flock, then let them exercise their own agency based upon the standards set out in the scriptures. Which is exactly right. Again, nothing wrong with the HC, as it is an ideal based upon correct principles. But let me know when you find one of your neighbors spying on you and reporting back to Church HQ, cuz it ain't gonna happen, and thus, does not need to at BYU either.


Two things,



1) It can't really happen all that much, if at all. I think it is an urban legend, but am willign to concede that it may happen once every 10 years or so.



and



2) Even if it did happen (which, again, I don't think it does, at least not to the extent that people pretend that it does) the only people who care are the ones wanting to get away with something.



Stated another way, I think most people get thier dander up over these discussions because the people railing against the honor code are essentially calling those who have lived it mindless drones, or acne-infested geeks.
M
Mars
Lawboy wrote:
So you are saying that President Monson attends BYU and spied on his co-students? And here I thought he counseled his flock, then let them exercise their own agency based upon the standards set out in the scriptures. Which is exactly right. Again, nothing wrong with the HC, as it is an ideal based upon correct principles. But let me know when you find one of your neighbors spying on you and reporting back to Church HQ, cuz it ain't gonna happen, and thus, does not need to at BYU either.

"Spies". Some people are ridiculous. But yes, President Monson has been responsible for others as a missionary and an area authority. And yes, home and visiting teachers, Elder's Quorum and Relief Society Presidents do their best to identify problems ward members are having an report them to the bishop. Kind of like how if your son or daughter was smoking crack, you'd want to hear about it from any "spy" possible. Ya nut.
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snoscythe
Lawboy wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
#1 argument against the Honor Code is the same it has always been. It is not the Code itself per se, nor is it the way the code is enforced when it is violated. It is that the "Honor" aspect of the code is not always the driving force. Not when you have students telling on each other, spies to enforce it, etc. What is the "honor" in that? And let's not act like that does not happen, because it absolutely does. If that component got removed, it be more like the rest of the world that LDS members live in. But with that component at BYU, it creates a mini-Gestapo influence that is simply not needed.

It's like those Neighborhood Watch Nazis that will call the cops on anyone they see breaking into someone's house, or busting out car lights. Those Gestapo freaks make me sick! :sick:


Let me know the last time someone got kicked out of the neighborhood for not wanting to participate in the watch program. Thanks.


Did they agree to the neighborhood watch as part of their HOA covenants? That's the only way your comparison could be accurate--if you've agreed to abide by the program and as part of your agreement you have agreed to a sanction for violation that could put you out of the neighborhood.



In our old neighborhood, we had a family who had such egregious covenant violations that the HOA was able to get a lien, foreclose when they couldn't afford to pay the penalties, and evict. Their violations? A non-compliant color scheme on their shingles and they built a shed 2 feet too close to the neighbor's property.



When you come to BYU, you sign a paper and commit to your bishop that you are going to abide by the Honor Code, and the punishment for violation is pretty clear. Part of the Honor Code is an obligation to report other violations. So, when I hear someone complain about being reported for a violation, I know two things: one person can't keep their promises, and another person can. If you don't like it, don't agree to it, i.e. go to UVU.
L
Lawboy
Your HOA sucks. Or those people had horrible lawyers. Just sayin.
B
BoiseBYU
Next up: 10 commandments



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snoscythe
Lawboy wrote:
Your HOA sucks. Or those people had horrible lawyers. Just sayin.


Moral of the Story: Don't make promises you can't keep. And this would happen with any HOA with well written covenants. Most people just aren't so dumb to refuse and refuse to comply like these geniuses. Kind of like the geniuses who sign the Honor Code thinking they can get away with shennanigans, but complain about "spies" when they get caught. These are the people who at judgment day will complain about "Big Brother" watching for their every mistake.
C
CougarPeasant
Lawboy wrote:
So you are saying that President Monson attends BYU and spied on his co-students? And here I thought he counseled his flock, then let them exercise their own agency based upon the standards set out in the scriptures. Which is exactly right. Again, nothing wrong with the HC, as it is an ideal based upon correct principles. But let me know when you find one of your neighbors spying on you and reporting back to Church HQ, cuz it ain't gonna happen, and thus, does not need to at BYU either.


Actually, President Monson attended BYU while an apostle. (He received his MBA from the Y.) He agreed to live the Honor Code and he needed an ecclesiastical endorsement. I doubt he was offended to do both since he was an Apostle of the Lord at the time. He's now the Prophet of the Lord and can change the Honor Code requirement if he felt it was a burden for BYU, its students and the perception with the outside world.



He's as media savvy a leader as anyone, much like President Hinckley, yet he's done nothing to change the requirements of attending BYU in spite of the media problems that seem to flock around BYU for being a place for "peculiar people" to gather.
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CougarPeasant
hawkwing wrote:
I've also moved this to the Lounge, because it's not about football.


Perhaps you can rename the Lounge as "The Foyer." We all know the real dirt is discussed in the foyer at church between and after meetings, not during. ;)
B
bigbluepuma
Interesting arguments agains the HC that is ultimately under the direction of the first presidency of the LDS church. I trust that most of the complainers are church members. :roll: Most of the arguments have been answered well. One that hasn't is that BYU would be the same without the HC. I only have one question..... What're you smokin, man????? :bug:
U
urroner
BoiseBYU wrote:
Next up: 10 commandments


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U
urroner
bigbluepuma wrote:
Interesting arguments agains the HC that is ultimately under the direction of the first presidency of the LDS church. I trust that most of the complainers are church members. :roll: Most of the arguments have been answered well. One that hasn't is that BYU would be the same without the HC. I only have one question..... What're you smokin, man????? :bug:


Whatever it is, it sure ain't big enough.



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Cougy_Monster
33311710 wrote:



And for those of you who I just pissed off - who will BLINDLY support ANYTHING that comes out of BYU Headquarters regardless of rationale or reason...Riddle Me This:



When a BYU student "transgresses" and violates the honor code, why is it easier and faster to get their temple recommend back than it is to get back into school and back on the football team?


Don't be a fool. The answer is clear. The leaders of our Church (you know them as acne blah blah geeks blah blah) choose to enforce standards higher than those required for temple attendance for members who voluntarily enroll in institutions that represent the Church either officially or by public inference. The BYU Honor Code is one example -- Missionary service is another. Many are worthy to hold a temple recommend but cannot serve a mission.



And please, for your own sake ( I really mean that) don't accuse people who are obedient to the counsels of the Church of being "blind" followers. I've been blinded and deceived in the past, but never by this Church.



Last but not least. You've fallen victim to a sly tactic of those who promote evil. They know evil must be disguised or it will be rejected for what it really is. So they rename things. Your folly is exposed by labelling sexual sin as getting "lucky". It may seem innocent, but in the context of your rant (which included strange attempts at using scripture to justify a clear hatred of policies supported by the 1st Presidency) your choice if words expose your more pointed message which appears to be that these "sins" aren't that big of a deal and shouldn't be punishable.



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