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Why I Detest The Honor Code

by Y 4 Ever · 4/22/2010

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B
bigbluepuma
Cougymonster wrote:



"You've fallen victim to a sly tactic of those who promote evil. They know evil must be disguised or it will be rejected for what it really is. So they rename things.



Something about "good being had for evil and evil being had for good" comes to mind.
C
Cougy_Monster
bigbluepuma wrote:
Cougymonster wrote:



"You've fallen victim to a sly tactic of those who promote evil. They know evil must be disguised or it will be rejected for what it really is. So they rename things.



Something about "good being had for evil and evil being had for good" comes to mind.


Calling good evil and evil good is the current ploy of the adversary:



abortion is a "choice"



marijuana is "medicinal'



homosexuality is an "alternative"

B
bigbluepuma
That list could go on and on and on and on and.......
I
Italics
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most of the geeky Peter Priesthood's and old men of Utah/Idaho simply cannot fully comprehend the idea of being able to keep the commandsWITHOUT *gasp!!!* a man-made code!



People who are going to keep the commandments will keep them despite any man-made code or fear of breaking it.



Those who think we need man-made rules to keep ACTUAL commandments need to be questioning their own testimony, not the testimony of others.



And please don't pretend like the HC is commandment or scripture. If so, it would not vary from Provo, to rexburg, to Hawaii.
I
Italics
90% of the posters here grew up in mormon communities and don't know what it's like to grow up with constant peer pressure.



Most of the people who worship the HC would be the first ones to break the commandments if it didn't exist. If I depended on a man-made code to maintain my morals, I'd probably be strongly questioning my own testimony.
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M
Mars
Italics wrote:
90% of the posters here grew up in mormon communities and don't know what it's like to grow up with constant peer pressure. Most of the people who worship the HC would be the first ones to break the commandments if it didn't exist. If I depended on a man-made code to maintain my morals, I'd probably be strongly questioning my own testimony.

http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/2/7/7/9/3/9/a2926156-219-Facepalm%20jesus-facepalm-facepalm.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
S
Schmoe
Italics wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most of the geeky Peter Priesthood's and old men of Utah/Idaho simply cannot fully comprehend the idea of being able to keep the commandsWITHOUT *gasp!!!* a man-made code!



People who are going to keep the commandments will keep them despite any man-made code or fear of breaking it.



Those who think we need man-made rules to keep ACTUAL commandments need to be questioning their own testimony, not the testimony of others.



And please don't pretend like the HC is commandment or scripture. If so, it would not vary from Provo, to rexburg, to Hawaii.


Now you're just being a dumb bigot. When you're on your mission, a lot of what your mission president asks you to do is not commandments, but it's to preserve a certain spirit about you and your companionship. It's a privilege to represent the Lord and you can be reprimanded and *GASP* even booted for disobeying your mission president's rules. Stop fighting it, stop ignoring the arguments that bury you, and stop being a prejudiced idiot. Only a pompous ass would assume to intimately know the upbringing of 90% of the posters on this board and why they made the choices that they did while growing up. Here's the kicker: I didn't want to follow the honor code, SO I CHOSE NOT TO GO TO BYU! Everyone is free to make that choice, they can use their agency to do just that, because it's a privilege to attend a university with that special atmosphere, and if you're not going to respect it, then let someone who is take your place there.
A
ABYUFAN
Italics wrote:
90% of the posters here grew up in mormon communities and don't know what it's like to grow up with constant peer pressure.


How'd you quantify that? Oh, that's right, 89% of all statistics are just made up anyway.






Italics wrote:
Most of the people who worship the HC would be the first ones to break the commandments if it didn't exist.

Huh? I've not seen anyone here worshiping the honor code... But assuming that you're just being an ass and overstating everyone else's position because you cannot disagree without being disagreeable, I'll assume that when you say "people that worship the honor code" you really mean "people who believe that the honor code is a good thing." With that assumption in mind, my choices with respect to gaguing my own life are: either I still live by the honor code now - even though I've been away from BYU longer than some at BYU have been alive, or I'm sinning like a pagan because I lack the moral integrity to Choose The Right with no enforcible honor code in my life now?





Really? Clearly you don't believe that... if so you need to lay of the salvia divinorum




Italics wrote:

If I depended on a man-made code to maintain my morals, I'd probably be strongly questioning my own testimony.

It sounds like you are...
A
ABYUFAN
Italics wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most of the geeky Peter Priesthood's and old men of Utah/Idaho simply cannot fully comprehend the idea of being able to keep the commandsWITHOUT *gasp!!!* a man-made code!


O.K. - I get it…You consider yourself superior to many (if not all) Good for ya! It's a common thing, it's call "pride" by some people. I'll be sure at fast and testimony meeting this week to stand up and tell everyone in my ward that through the magic of the internet I've found a better person than them, and they should give up now - and have some koolaid :bug: :gross:


Italics wrote:

People who are going to keep the commandments will keep them despite any man-made code or fear of breaking it.


Says Dr. Itallics who I'm sure has 3 full credit hours (with a b- grade) of either premedical training or psychology, thus making him eminently qualified to judge the intentions of all of those beings he considers to be "inferior"....


Italics wrote:

Those who think we need man-made rules to keep ACTUAL commandments need to be questioning their own testimony, not the testimony of others.


I didn't see anyone actually espousing this argument, but nice try fella :skeptic:


Italics wrote:
And please don't pretend like the HC is commandment or scripture. If so, it would not vary from Provo, to rexburg, to Hawaii.

Why is "r"exburg less important than "P"rovo or "H"awaii? :skeptic:



Any way, we always treat everyone the same, that's why we have the exact same facilities in Provo Hawaii, and Rexburg, the same 65,000 seat stadium, the same curriculum, heck even the same trimester program. Nothing ever varies, so the honor code cannot! :roll:
L
Lawboy
The HC is the reason Mike Loyd left. He is non-LDS, a good kid and a really good person. But it sounds as if a tongue ring, and silly hairstyle and perhaps, some coffee, ran him off. If he was an LDS kid, I would get running him. But he is not, now because of his things went down--never will be--and it is unfortunate. I;d rather have him at BYU, feeling the spirit, and helping him with things than seeing him run "mutually" because of HC issues.



In spite of what he did, there is no denying it would be better for him to be at BYU than gone, regardless of hoops. HC or no HC. He broke no laws, is a good citizen, and BYU benefited by his diverse presence on campus. Unfortunate HC casualty, because he may not want to live aspects of it.



I expect to see this happen more often now as well.
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I
Italics
Lawboy wrote:
The HC is the reason Mike Loyd left. He is non-LDS, a good kid and a really good person. But it sounds as if a tongue ring, and silly hairstyle and perhaps, some coffee, ran him off. If he was an LDS kid, I would get running him. But he is not, now because of his things went down--never will be--and it is unfortunate. I;d rather have him at BYU, feeling the spirit, and helping him with things than seeing him run "mutually" because of HC issues.



In spite of what he did, there is no denying it would be better for him to be at BYU than gone, regardless of hoops. HC or no HC. He broke no laws, is a good citizen, and BYU benefited by his diverse presence on campus. Unfortunate HC casualty, because he may not want to live aspects of it.



I expect to see this happen more often now as well.


See this more often? We see enough of it already!



And ABYUFAN - Let me break this to you in the nicest way possible: You are 100% wrong about the honor code not having different rules at the three BYU's.
Y
Y 4 Ever
Cougy_Monster wrote:



And for those of you who I just pissed off - who will BLINDLY support ANYTHING that comes out of BYU Headquarters regardless of rationale or reason...Riddle Me This:



When a BYU student "transgresses" and violates the honor code, why is it easier and faster to get their temple recommend back than it is to get back into school and back on the football team?


The BYU Honor Code is one example -- Missionary service is another. Many are worthy to hold a temple recommend but cannot serve a mission.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


Last I checked...you don't get "set apart" when you attend BYU. You don't receive a "calling" to attend BYU. And I'm pretty sure that a Church Authority doesn't sign your admission acceptance slip.



Oh...and one more thing - as I understand it, you DO have to be a member of the church in good standing to gain admission to the Temple...but last I checked, even non-LDS kids can attend BYU.



Please don't compare the BYU campus to the House of the Lord.
Y
Y 4 Ever
Lawboy wrote:
The HC is the reason Mike Loyd left. He is non-LDS, a good kid and a really good person. But it sounds as if a tongue ring, and silly hairstyle and perhaps, some coffee, ran him off. If he was an LDS kid, I would get running him. But he is not, now because of his things went down--never will be--and it is unfortunate. I;d rather have him at BYU, feeling the spirit, and helping him with things than seeing him run "mutually" because of HC issues.



In spite of what he did, there is no denying it would be better for him to be at BYU than gone, regardless of hoops. HC or no HC. He broke no laws, is a good citizen, and BYU benefited by his diverse presence on campus. Unfortunate HC casualty, because he may not want to live aspects of it.



I expect to see this happen more often now as well.


How DARE you!We are all MUCH better off with him being forced out of school with a PERMANENT bad taste in his mouth about the LDS church! We DO have to preserve the sanctity of a man-made Honor Code which is enforced as strictly as Puritan religions of the 17th century.



Can't we just brand his forehead while we are at it?
Y
Y 4 Ever
You know...I just spent the last week or so all pissed off because I thought my original post was deleted - didn't realize until today that it was just moved. For a minute, I almost thought I was back on Cougar Blue :sick:



Anyway...look, I understand and respect the opinions of those who support the honor code. And truthfully, I am not necessarily opposed to the honor code itself per se - but I AM opposed to how it's enforced, and the harshness of the penalties for violators.



For those of you who seem to view attendance at BYU as some kind of a "calling", and consider that adequate justification for the ridiculous harshness of the enforcement of the HC...can you seriously say that?



The BYU Campus is NOT a church. A person who attends BYU is NOT a set-apart missionary and/or a General Authority.



BYU is 2 things - first and foremost, an EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION, and 2nd, a Missionary Tool. But what kind of a missionary tool is it really if we chase off anyone who violates this Honor Code? How many non-LDS kids have been forced out of the school because of even minor HC violations? What kind of a lasting impression does that leave with them? And maybe WORSE...how many more non-LDS kids would have attended BYU were it NOT for the HC? How many more non-LDS kids could have been positively influenced by their attendance at BYU, maybe even converted, had they not been scared away by the ridiculous strictness of the HC, and the "brutality" of its enforcement? What kind of a missionary tool DRIVES AWAY the majority of the people who it's designed to reach?



Because of the success of the athletic programs, BYU is highly visible nationally (even internationally), and is often considered synonymous with the Church as a whole. What kind of an impression does it leave on non-members when they read a story about some college kid being expelled from school for violating the honor code? They won't just view this as a BYU-related incident - they will assume that this is how things are done at the CHURCH level.



They might assume that if you violate any church laws or commandments, you might then get kicked out of the CHURCH! The "enforcement and punishment" practices of the HC Committee do NOT appear to be in harmony with the idea of a religion founded on love, forgiveness, sympathy, charity, and compassion. Its no wonder why people even today still picture the Amish and Quakers when they think of Mormons. They probably wonder where we keep our stockades.



Really, what harm does it do for a non-LDS kid to have a cup of coffee at an off-campus Starbucks? Does that REALLY matter? Is he HURTING anyone? Is BYU's reputation as a "different" place damaged? Or for that matter, what difference does it make for that same non-LDS kid, if he is of AGE, to have an alcoholic beverage in a law-abiding manner and circumstance?



Like I said in my original post - BYU will ALWAYS be a "peculiar" place. It will always be "different". And the overwhelming majority of the student body will behave themselves admirably without this threat of "educational obliteration" if you slip up.



And I find it absolutely, 100% ridiculous that to attend BYU you must abide by a code of conduct that is MORE stringent than the requirements to attend the Temple! (what's that? You think that's not the case? Last time I was at the Temple, I distinctly remember seeing men with BEARDS (*gasp*) in attendance. I guess I forgot to ask to see their "beard cards")



It is your right to whole-heartedly support the HC. And it is my right to be 100% opposed to it, which I will continue to be, and which will cause a flare-up when I hear about another student (athlete or otherwise) who finds their enrollment status TERMINATED at BYU because of an "honor code infraction".



I'll repeat what I said earlier - ANY person's transgressions and/or personal worthiness issues should be handled between that person and their BISHOP (or ecclesiastical leader if non-lds) - there should be NO involvement with some "committee" of people who hold NO endorsement from the Church as a "judge in Zion".



I cannot support a bloated code of conduct with an overly-harsh enforcement policy that hangs over student's heads like an anvil, and is detrimental to the lives of those who run afoul of the "code". And I never will.



I love BYU - I've sat in the same seats in the football stands for almost 30 years. I hope all of my kids go to BYU. But I do NOT love, condone, and/or support the "Honor Code" in any way, shape, or form. And that is my right.
A
ABYUFAN
Italics wrote:

And ABYUFAN - Let me break this to you in the nicest way possible: You are 100% wrong about the honor code not having different rules at the three BYU's.

I probably should have been more clear. I know that the three schools have different honor codes, just like they have different physical facalities and different educational goals. I've had dinner with the president of BYU Idaho, and personal conversations with the present of BYU Hawaii, including discussions the honor code. the president of BYU Hawaii indicated that he had to institute a "one hit rule" because of the fights that occoured on campus, in other words, one hit and your gone as in all the way gone.



Idaho and Provo don't have that rule, but according to numbers and you President Shumway is just some pimply faced-peter priesthood who han't gotten lucky enough - and that's why he enacted that rule. :skeptic:
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A
ABYUFAN
33311710 wrote:
33311710 wrote:



And for those of you who I just pissed off - who will BLINDLY support ANYTHING that comes out of BYU Headquarters regardless of rationale or reason...Riddle Me This:



When a BYU student "transgresses" and violates the honor code, why is it easier and faster to get their temple recommend back than it is to get back into school and back on the football team?


The BYU Honor Code is one example -- Missionary service is another. Many are worthy to hold a temple recommend but cannot serve a mission.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


Last I checked...you don't get "set apart" when you attend BYU. You don't receive a "calling" to attend BYU. And I'm pretty sure that a Church Authority doesn't sign your admission acceptance slip.



Oh...and one more thing - as I understand it, you DO have to be a member of the church in good standing to gain admission to the Temple...but last I checked, even non-LDS kids can attend BYU.



Please don't compare the BYU campus to the House of the Lord.






BTW thanks for descending from your ivory tower to visit us pimply-faced sub-humans for a few moments, now I gotta go and see if I can "get lucky" because there are no honor code enforcers around, and the only reason I had "Chosen the Right" before is because I "HAD" to 18 years ago...
Y
Y 4 Ever
ABYUFAN wrote:

BTW thanks for descending from your ivory tower to visit us pimply-faced sub-humans for a few moments, now I gotta go and see if I can "get lucky" because there are no honor code enforcers around, and the only reason I had "Chosen the Right" before is because I "HAD" to 18 years ago...


I think you're getting me and another board member here confused. Someone who agrees with my position on the honor code said something very similar to that.



And as I said before, I thought my post had been deleted - didn't know it had been moved. Otherwise, I would have been back long ago to defend my position.



But, that being said.....you're welcome!
B
BoiseBYU
I am old and I live in Idaho, so Italics in your small little world my view is of little worth. So be it. I will share my views with the rest. I accept and support that the Church imposes standards on those who attend one of its schools. I accept and support that the Church requires its students to live those standards as a condition of receiving a very good education, highly subsidized by the church's tithepayers I might add. And I accept and support that the Church can hold a person accountable if he or she violates those standards. While I might come up with a different set of standards if I were the one assigned the task of prayerfully crafting such a code, I have not been so asked. But upon what basis can I complain? The standards are published to the world and I and every other BYU student knew or should have known exactly what we were being asked to do before we decided to attend BYU. There is no doubt that you can be a faithful member and choose not to go to a church school because you do not want to agree to live the required standards. I know many people like that. The church has outstanding institute programs at most schools and so one does not need to go to a church school to obtain further religious education and inspiration. But at least to my mind there equally is no doubt that if you attend a church school and violate one of its standards after having committed to keep them, then expecting accountability is the Lord's way. I think this all came up because Bro. Unga withdrew from the school for honor code reasons. I said this elsewhere but I salute Bro. Unga for accounting for his conduct. Whatever it might have been, acknowledging it and addressing it is what the honor code is about. I'd be proud of such a young man were he my son. We are a church whose members do preach of hope, and of forgiveness and of progress. That comes with accountability being accepted, however,not excused.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
M
Mars
Lawboy wrote:
The HC is the reason Mike Loyd left.

Who told you that? Mike Loyd? No. Dave Rose? No. BYU? No.

The kid was in good standing with BYU's Honor Code when he left. Anything else you claim is your nonfactual opinion, perhaps to help you win an argument.
S
SpiffCoug
Here's what I think happened, based on no inside information. Just my opinion from what I've read - both from those who claim know and those who are local media.



Loyd has always been a very confident person and someone who always struck as someone who lived the way he wanted. But living the honor code and with its restrictions was not the way he spent his high school years. He's been willing to live in these past three years and frankly was tired of it.



He wanted to have more "fun." He wanted to do things more his way. I don't think he broke the HC. I don't think there was anything that would have initiated a HC investigation. But I think Coach Rose heard and saw things that made him believe Mike might eventually go too far.



So he brought Mike in, sat him down and said, what's going on? Mike basically said he was tired of living the Honor Code. Rose said, do you think you can keep living it for two more years. Mike didn't think he could/or would want to.



So they parted ways.



I think the Honor Code was the reason Mike left, but not because he had violated it and the Honor Code Office or BYU academics were going to force him to leave. Mike Left because he was done living the Honor Code. He didn't want to give his word to live something he didn't want to live anymore.



Just my opinion.
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