Jake is not a Prima Donna

BigCougsFan wrote:
This dang off season is even getting BYU fans turning on each other!



At least its the off season. The Lamanites did this for generations.



As soon as kick off comes... We'll be standing around a campfire hand in hand singing: Rise and Shout...



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Kickoff? Fall Camp..... ;)

BigCougsFan wrote:
As soon as kick off comes... We'll be standing around a campfire hand in hand singing: Rise and Shout...

Great. So now they're allowing campfires in LES, but still no outside food/drink. Who's running this joint anyhow?



:crazy:

snoscythe wrote:

As soon as kick off comes... We'll be standing around a campfire hand in hand singing: Rise and Shout...

Great. So now they're allowing campfires in LES, but still no outside food/drink. Who's running this joint anyhow?



:crazy:

I don't know, but they don't like caffiene!



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BigCougsFan wrote:

BigCougsFan wrote:
As soon as kick off comes... We'll be standing around a campfire hand in hand singing: Rise and Shout...

Great. So now they're allowing campfires in LES, but still no outside food/drink. Who's running this joint anyhow?



:crazy:

I don't know, but they don't like caffiene!

Yeah, but who can blame them. It had acting on the par of Prince of Persia with the plot quality of Avatar:



http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/Caffeine%20One%20Sheet.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

snoscythe wrote:
I haven't said anything in this thread about who should/shouldn't be the starter. I haven't said anything about whether or not Jake is a prima donna.



Again, the narrow question I asked, that you continue to cloud: what position have you changed?



I could understand it if you had changed your position from your position in March that Heaps should be phased in as a starter to bold, new "Heaps should start" position, since that would be different from what you've been advocating since March. If you read the links (which took me all of 3 minutes to find with the search function), you'll see that you are taking the same position today that you were taking them.



Here's some examples of your past position, since you seem unwilling to follow the links:

(June 1st) I fully expect however that because of heaps' physical and skill ability a long with his smarts and ability to learn very quickly he will overtake Riley before this season is over if not before it even starts.

(May 28) even if nelson starts, he won't fend of heaps for long. heaps will be starting at some point this season I would imagine.

(March 24) he is looking very good. it would be nice to be able to redshirt him but if nelson or lark can't outshine him the coaches may not have a choice but to play him come fall if he just keeps getting better than those guys.

(March 12) Mark my words. Nelson won't be the starting qb come the opening game with washington. Its heap or lark's for the taking.

So tell me, what has changed? My only point in all those links was that question--your OP made it seem like you were a fence-sitter who was suddenly converted by a warm/fuzzy story with quotes from Jake's biggest fans, when in fact, the position you've laid out is one you staked months before the article was published. Now you claim to have previously staked the position that "freshmen should redshirt," but your one previous reference to "it would be nice to be able to redshirt him" doesn't exact stake out that ground, especially given your other comments.



Again--what has changed? Show me how the position you've taken in this thread differs from your past statements I've linked to. I just don't buy it.

Just an observation from an infrequent poster following this exchange. It looks like in all of these quotes that he is simply stating the opinion that he thinks that Jake will start. It is obvious that he has felt that way for some time. In his original post he said he now HOPES Jake will start. Could that be the change in position he is referring to? Going from an ambivalent opinion that Jake will start to officially declaring his position that he hopes Jake starts and is officially in the "Jake Heaps for Starting QB" club? Just an observation.

Just wanna beat UW Huskies. That's it. Jake, Riley - or both. Let's just not turn it over & shoot ourselves in the foot. Just win!!!



Cougs Rule!!

8)

WACoug wrote:

I haven't said anything in this thread about who should/shouldn't be the starter. I haven't said anything about whether or not Jake is a prima donna.



Again, the narrow question I asked, that you continue to cloud: what position have you changed?



I could understand it if you had changed your position from your position in March that Heaps should be phased in as a starter to bold, new "Heaps should start" position, since that would be different from what you've been advocating since March. If you read the links (which took me all of 3 minutes to find with the search function), you'll see that you are taking the same position today that you were taking them.



Here's some examples of your past position, since you seem unwilling to follow the links:

(June 1st) I fully expect however that because of heaps' physical and skill ability a long with his smarts and ability to learn very quickly he will overtake Riley before this season is over if not before it even starts.

(May 28) even if nelson starts, he won't fend of heaps for long. heaps will be starting at some point this season I would imagine.

(March 24) he is looking very good. it would be nice to be able to redshirt him but if nelson or lark can't outshine him the coaches may not have a choice but to play him come fall if he just keeps getting better than those guys.

(March 12) Mark my words. Nelson won't be the starting qb come the opening game with washington. Its heap or lark's for the taking.

So tell me, what has changed? My only point in all those links was that question--your OP made it seem like you were a fence-sitter who was suddenly converted by a warm/fuzzy story with quotes from Jake's biggest fans, when in fact, the position you've laid out is one you staked months before the article was published. Now you claim to have previously staked the position that "freshmen should redshirt," but your one previous reference to "it would be nice to be able to redshirt him" doesn't exact stake out that ground, especially given your other comments.



Again--what has changed? Show me how the position you've taken in this thread differs from your past statements I've linked to. I just don't buy it.

Just an observation from an infrequent poster following this exchange. It looks like in all of these quotes that he is simply stating the opinion that he thinks that Jake will start. It is obvious that he has felt that way for some time. In his original post he said he now HOPES Jake will start. Could that be the change in position he is referring to? Going from an ambivalent opinion that Jake will start to officially declaring his position that he hopes Jake starts and is officially in the "Jake Heaps for Starting QB" club? Just an observation.

I thinks its obvious. I am not sure what Sno's problem here is. I wont waste anymore time with this one. You are correct, I now hope and think that Jake should start. Before I was on the fence but leaning to the idea that it would be bets to redshirt him. Craigocarson's reasoning on this was persuasive to me. Despite that opinion that it may be better to sit him out, I thought that Jake would probably start given what I was hearing out of camp. Sno has pointed this out very well. But I have changed my mind. I think its better to start him. Nobody has proven to be better than him, not even the very talented nelson who has two years under his belt. I am at the point now that barring something changing things drastically in fall camp, I want and think Jake should start. I have been on the fence. Now I am not.



Not sure what the big deal is. I guess Sno wants to make sure that my change of heart is really not just me being very devious attempting to sway other message board readers that Jake should start? I think if you read carefully, which I am not sure why anybody would want to, you can see my positions are consistent. I have been an observer without an opinion on whether he 'should' start. I did have thought that he 'would' start and I made comments to support that idea. I have never said however that he 'should' start until recently. Hope that helps sno. thank you for your interest and attention.

snoscythe wrote:

As soon as kick off comes... We'll be standing around a campfire hand in hand singing: Rise and Shout...

Great. So now they're allowing campfires in LES, but still no outside food/drink. Who's running this joint anyhow?



:crazy:

nope. No joints either. have to go further :utard: North :utard: for that.

jonnylingo wrote:
I thinks its obvious. I am not sure what Sno's problem here is. I wont waste anymore time with this one. You are correct, I now hope and think that Jake should start. Before I was on the fence but leaning to the idea that it would be bets to redshirt him. Craigocarson's reasoning on this was persuasive to me. Despite that opinion that it may be better to sit him out, I thought that Jake would probably start given what I was hearing out of camp. Sno has pointed this out very well. But I have changed my mind. I think its better to start him. Nobody has proven to be better than him, not even the very talented nelson who has two years under his belt. I am at the point now that barring something changing things drastically in fall camp, I want and think Jake should start. I have been on the fence. Now I am not.



Not sure what the big deal is. I guess Sno wants to make sure that my change of heart is really not just me being very devious attempting to sway other message board readers that Jake should start? I think if you read carefully, which I am not sure why anybody would want to, you can see my positions are consistent. I have been an observer without an opinion on whether he 'should' start. I did have thought that he 'would' start and I made comments to support that idea. I have never said however that he 'should' start until recently. Hope that helps sno. thank you for your interest and attention.

Thank you. All I was asking for was a simple answer to a simple question. I now have it.

snoscythe wrote:

I thinks its obvious. I am not sure what Sno's problem here is. I wont waste anymore time with this one. You are correct, I now hope and think that Jake should start. Before I was on the fence but leaning to the idea that it would be bets to redshirt him. Craigocarson's reasoning on this was persuasive to me. Despite that opinion that it may be better to sit him out, I thought that Jake would probably start given what I was hearing out of camp. Sno has pointed this out very well. But I have changed my mind. I think its better to start him. Nobody has proven to be better than him, not even the very talented nelson who has two years under his belt. I am at the point now that barring something changing things drastically in fall camp, I want and think Jake should start. I have been on the fence. Now I am not.



Not sure what the big deal is. I guess Sno wants to make sure that my change of heart is really not just me being very devious attempting to sway other message board readers that Jake should start? I think if you read carefully, which I am not sure why anybody would want to, you can see my positions are consistent. I have been an observer without an opinion on whether he 'should' start. I did have thought that he 'would' start and I made comments to support that idea. I have never said however that he 'should' start until recently. Hope that helps sno. thank you for your interest and attention.

Thank you. All I was asking for was a simple answer to a simple question. I now have it.

I think it was there all along. Everybody else seemed to get it. I just had to repeat it about eight times I guess.

Easy Lawboy. I think thou dost protest too much. Your flying words seem to indict rather than vindicate you. No need to throw names around or take this personal.

I actually agree with your point, at the heart of it and I think you missed that.

My point is that I am seeing such frequent posts either debasing Jake or taking the task upon themselves to right-size others expectations (insert: disqualifying the opinions and "discuss"ion of Jake-voters as a "joke"), acting likes sages (sorry sage :) ) trying to state what I think most reader/posters already get.



Am I wrong CC readers? Don't most of you generally get that Jake is quite talented; probably got more press than he should have; probably will start either early or by mid-season if spring trends continue and that while very talented, he will make some freshman mistakes and wont be as productive as he will by year 2 and beyond, etc., etc?

Like I said, we get it--IMLIHO (in my Lawboy-induced humbled opinion). Just having fun man. I like your points and analysis, mostly.

I don't think Heaps got more press than he should have. BYU is "the quarterback factory" and he's now in the mix. His timing couldn't have been better. Had Ben Olson stepped into a similar situation I have little doubt he would have emerged as the starter his freshman year.



Jake is in the ideal situation. The veteran QB moves on, no clear favorite was serving as his understudy, there are a host of top caliber QB wanna bes that want to be the next great BYU QB, but none was brought along properly like BYU did originally to establish itself as a great school for quarterbacks. Of course, none served missions either when BYU was building its reputation either.



I'm in the play Heaps now if he shows he can move the offense and lead the team. I expect BYU to reload and have an improved defense and a strong offense. 10 wins is my expectation, though I understand 8 wins is possible.



Whoever Doman, Anae, and Bronco annoint as the next QB, I will root for him as if he were Carter, Neilson, WIlson, McMahon, Young, Bosco, Detmer, Sarkisian, Beck, and Hall all rolled into one. He stands on their shoulders and will be successful.

CougarP[l]easant....I like it. Well said.

CougarPeasant wrote:
I don't think Heaps got more press than he should have. BYU is "the quarterback factory" and he's now in the mix. His timing couldn't have been better. Had Ben Olson stepped into a similar situation I have little doubt he would have emerged as the starter his freshman year.



Jake is in the ideal situation. The veteran QB moves on, no clear favorite was serving as his understudy, there are a host of top caliber QB wanna bes that want to be the next great BYU QB, but none was brought along properly like BYU did originally to establish itself as a great school for quarterbacks. Of course, none served missions either when BYU was building its reputation either.



I'm in the play Heaps now if he shows he can move the offense and lead the team. I expect BYU to reload and have an improved defense and a strong offense. 10 wins is my expectation, though I understand 8 wins is possible.



Whoever Doman, Anae, and Bronco annoint as the next QB, I will root for him as if he were Carter, Neilson, WIlson, McMahon, Young, Bosco, Detmer, Sarkisian, Beck, and Hall all rolled into one. He stands on their shoulders and will be successful.

I will support whoever Bronco picks to start. Having said that, I have some serious reservations about starting Jake as a true freshman. It just doesn't turn out very well for some guys when that happens. I still hope BYU closes fall camp to everyone so no one knows who is getting the reps in camp. If Jake does get the call, I hope that Bronco and Co have gone full speed bringing the house on him (defensively) all fall to make sure he knows the speed of the college game. Frankly, I am hoping that Lark or Munns takes the starting job in the fall so this whole Jake vs Riley thing gets thrown out the window. Redshirt the freshman and let him go on a mission while Lark or Munns have thier day.

frdbtr wrote:



I will support whoever Bronco picks to start. Having said that, I have some serious reservations about starting Jake as a true freshman. It just doesn't turn out very well for some guys when that happens.

In the strictest sense, Jake is not a true freshman. He came in January, played spring ball and learned the offense, and had all summer to work with the guys. Not like he is setting foot on campus the first time when fall camp starts. So in that sense, he really is like a RS freshman. But I do understand the reservations.



I thought I would look at how some true freshman have fared recently, for comparison sake. Not comparing Jake to anyone them, just anecdotal. But interesting:



Matt Barkekey (USC)2009 9-4 2,735 yards 59.9% Comp 131.32 RATING

Jacory Harris (Miami) 2008 7-6 1,195 yards 60.8% Comp 125.77 RATING

Jimmy Clausen (Notre Dame)2007 3-9 1,254 yards 56.3% Comp 103.85 RATING

Terrel Pryor (tOSU) 2008 10-3 1,311 yards 60.6% COMP 146.50 RATING





And here is an Elite 11 QB rundown, just for fun. Goes back to 2008.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2008-07-29-elite11-chart_N.htm

Lawboy wrote:

I will support whoever Bronco picks to start. Having said that, I have some serious reservations about starting Jake as a true freshman. It just doesn't turn out very well for some guys when that happens.

In the strictest sense, Jake is not a true freshman. He came in January, played spring ball and learned the offense, and had all summer to work with the guys. Not like he is setting foot on campus the first time when fall camp starts. So in that sense, he really is like a RS freshman. But I do understand the reservations.



I thought I would look at how some true freshman have fared recently, for comparison sake. Not comparing Jake to anyone them, just anecdotal. But interesting:



Matt Barkekey (USC)2009 9-4 2,735 yards 59.9% Comp 131.32 RATING

Jacory Harris (Miami) 2008 7-6 1,195 yards 60.8% Comp 125.77 RATING

Jimmy Clausen (Notre Dame)2007 3-9 1,254 yards 56.3% Comp 103.85 RATING

Terrel Pryor (tOSU) 2008 10-3 1,311 yards 60.6% COMP 146.50 RATING





And here is an Elite 11 QB rundown, just for fun. Goes back to 2008.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2008-07-29-elite11-chart_N.htm

And look how Elite 11 QBs have fared as RS freshmen, or as true sophomores after limited reserve play as true freshmen:



Andrew Luck (Stan 2008) 2009 8-5 2,575 yards 56.3% 143.47 RATING

Blaine Gabbert (Mizz 2008) 2009 8-5 3,593 yards 58.9% 140.45 RATING

Landry Jones (OU 2008) 2009 8-5 3,198 yards 58.1% 130.83 RATING

Ryan Mallet (Ark 2007--sat out year for xfer) 2009 8-5 3,627 yards 55.8% 152.52 RATING



The guys a year into the program grossly outperform the true freshmen, and with a lot less talent surrounding them. Why did those teams start true-freshmen? Look at their numbers. Only one of them passed for more than 2,000 yards--these were teams that could rely on the running game to win games and didn't need a lot of production out of the passing game. After Unga's departure, BYU doesn't have that luxury. In contrast, none of the RS freshmen had less than 2,500 yards, and 3 had more than 3000, 2 with more than 3,500.



If you are going to have a guy on the field four years, make all four of them count. Use the RS year to develop the talent and make for a better 4 years down the road. You need a compelling reason to start a true freshman in lieu of a redshirt year in my book. People are afraid that if Heaps doesn't start this season he will have to wait until Nelson graduates, but that simply isn't true--Bronco put the incumbent Berry on the bench in favor of Beck, so he's shown the willingness let the younger guy take the reins when he's ready.

I'll take a just off the boat, already playing at a competitive level, hit the ground running Heaps any day, over a hasn't played a real game situation for 5 years, post RS, post mission, post transfer sit-out Hall. Nelson doesn't have a chance, if physical talent and mental poise are a factor. Papa Nelson (Sno) and everyone else in thatcamp are kidding themselves. Watch a couple Heaps highlight videos w/ 4th qtr comebacks in playoff games, and you'll get the picture. Then pull up a couple Riley Nelson vids, oh wait, there are none.

Mars wrote:


If Detmer, McMahon, and Beck played as freshmen, Heaps can.

Detmer was a redshirt freshman and McMahon played as a punter (55 punts to only 16 pass attempts).

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Then pull up a couple Riley Nelson vids, oh wait, there are none.

I wouldn't say there are none. This is the first hit I had in my Youtube search, and I must say that true freshman Nelson looks pretty good in this video, in which he plays against NCAA D-I competition.



[youtube]flN2q1hQU2w[/youtube]