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Jake is not a Prima Donna

by jonnylingo · 7/19/2010

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Mingjai
snoscythe wrote:
If you are going to have a guy on the field four years, make all four of them count. Use the RS year to develop the talent and make for a better 4 years down the road. You need a compelling reason to start a true freshman in lieu of a redshirt year in my book. People are afraid that if Heaps doesn't start this season he will have to wait until Nelson graduates, but that simply isn't true--Bronco put the incumbent Berry on the bench in favor of Beck, so he's shown the willingness let the younger guy take the reins when he's ready.


I agree to an extent. I think you give both Nelson and Heaps significant playing time this year. If Nelson looks serviceable as a starter, then you redshirt Heaps in 2011 and let Nelson finish his eligibility. If Heaps looks head and shoulders above Nelson, then you start him in 2011.



In my mind, it's 1978-79 all over again, when BYU had a great QB Wilson competing with McMahon, who would ultimately become one of, if not the best, BYU QB ever. The two split time in 1978 (Wilson was a junior and McMahon a sophomore), winning the WAC and going to the Holiday Bowl. BYU decided to redshirt McMahon after that season to allow Wilson to finish his eligibilty, while still giving McMahon two more years to start.



While it may not seem like much, redshirting McMahon also allowed BYU to gain some national momentum, as BYU went 11-1 under Wilson in 1979, and 12-1 and 11-2 in 1980 and 1981 under McMahon. Imagine if McMahon had used up his eligibility in 1980--it would have forced Young into action a year early, and I'm not sure if he would have been ready. BYU's national championship in 1984 was the culmination of a 6 year period in which BYU had 5 seasons of 11 wins or more. Had 1981 been rebuilding year instead of a 11-2 bowl winning season, I don't know if BYU gains the recognition be voted as national champions in 1984.
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Brayden Green
Mingjai wrote:
Then pull up a couple Riley Nelson vids, oh wait, there are none.


I wouldn't say there are none. This is the first hit I had in my Youtube search, and I must say that true freshman Nelson looks pretty good in this video, in which he plays against NCAA D-I competition.



[youtube]flN2q1hQU2w[/youtube]


In my search 2 weeks ago I couldn't find anything substantial. Calling Fresno State D-1 competition is a little bit of a stretch as they went 4-8 that year, with their only wins being Idaho, New Mexico State, Louisiana Tech, and Nevada. And this is the season that USU went 1 and 11 with their only win being this Fresno State game. And who was at the helm for 8 of those last games? Gimme a break. I mean, good find on the video, but this doesn't legitimize him at all. Heaps played against teams in the playoffs last year that would give The 06 Aggies or Fresno State a run for their money. Now watch a Heaps vid, then look at your man, then back at Heaps. Does your man look like a competitive D-1 quarterback capable of running a BYU offense? No. But if he wears the same cologne as Jake Heaps, he could smell like one.
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SpiffCoug
BlueIsBetter wrote:
In my search 2 weeks ago I couldn't find anything substantial. Calling Fresno State D-1 competition is a little bit of a stretch as they went 4-8 that year, with their only wins being Idaho, New Mexico State, Louisiana Tech, and Nevada. And this is the season that USU went 1 and 11 with their only win being this Fresno State game. And who was at the helm for 8 of those last games? Gimme a break. I mean, good find on the video, but this doesn't legitimize him at all. Heaps played against teams in the playoffs last year that would give The 06 Aggies or Fresno State a run for their money. Now watch a Heaps vid, then look at your man, then back at Heaps. Does your man look like a competitive D-1 quarterback capable of running a BYU offense? No. But if he wears the same cologne as Jake Heaps, he could smell like one.

Seriously? I guarantee you that the 4-8 Fresno team you are saying is a "little bit of stretch" to be D-1 competition would beat EVERY single team that Heaps has EVER played against by four TDs. College football is a completely different sport than high school football. Just like the NFL is so far above the college game that there is no direct translation.



You ask if Nelson looks like a "competitive D-1 quarterback capable of running a BYU offense?" Do you really think the BYU coaching staff is completely incompetent? Do you think they would have had him transfer if they didn't think he could run the offense?



Good night! Bronco and Doman and Anae clearly see something in the kid or wouldn't have had him transfer and would have let him go back to Utah St. Riley Nelson has legitimate D-1 talent. Nothing more. He's not going to be an NFL QB, but he certainly has the tools to be a very good college QB. He has the ability and coaching staff who can surround him with talent to allow him to make plays and be successful.



He's not some poor schlub the coaches pulled from freshman biology and handed him a set of pads and a helmet and said, "Now get out there son, and make us proud."



Nelson is highly capable of leading BYU to a successful season. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be at BYU. Will he be the starter? I don't know. I think we'll know more a month from now.



But to discount him now, is simply foolish. To discount his efforts on a poor USU team is asinine. To claim that playing high school football is somehow superior to D1 football is ignorant.



To claim/insinuate the BYU coaches can't evaluate talent and are seriously contemplating giving the reigns of a Top 20 D1 program to an unskilled, untalented player is arrogant.



To make your decision on who you feel should be the starting QB two weeks before fall camp is hasty.



I have been in the Nelson camp since the end of last year. I am still in the Nelson camp. But I have always reserved the right to change my mind. Heaps' high school career is very impressive (almost as impressive as Nelson's). His performance during spring ball is very encouraging.



But I have yet to see anything from Nelson to make me believe there's no way he can't get the job done. Nor have I seen anything from Heaps to make me believe he's the only one who can get the job done.



I'm very excited to see how the fall camp plays out. I'm more than willing to change my opinion of the starting QB. I can't wait for fall camp to start and we have more data to go on. Right now, I think the competition is very open and very equal.
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Mingjai
BlueIsBetter wrote:
Now watch a Heaps vid, then look at your man, then back at Heaps. Does your man look like a competitive D-1 quarterback capable of running a BYU offense? No. But if he wears the same cologne as Jake Heaps, he could smell like one.


My man? I have no dog in this fight--if you would have read my earlier post, I'm advocating playing both this year. As a non-partisan, I think your analysis is hard to take serious for the reasons that kitic just outlined--you're coming across as very biased.
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scott715
It is quite possible that Nelson gets a lot of reps in Fall camp which allows him to settle down and become a very good quarterback. I hear that he has happy feet which does not give him the time to become that quarterback that we are looking for. Bronco will know if he can do it before the first game starts.
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SpiffCoug
scott715 wrote:
It is quite possible that Nelson gets a lot of reps in Fall camp which allows him to settle down and become a very good quarterback. I hear that he has happy feet which does not give him the time to become that quarterback that we are looking for. Bronco will know if he can do it before the first game starts.

Good point on the happy feet. I hope Nelson can settle down. I only saw the spring game and while he didn't have the three-step-drop-no-ones-open-I'm-running mentality, Nelson certainly didn't seem to have the patience to fully let routes develop either.



Of course, some guys hold onto the ball way too long and wind up getting sacked.



I remember watching Max Hall during a fall practice in 2006 while running the scout team. I saw him make a throw to a WR on the deep out. He threw the ball before the WR made the break. I remember distinctly thinking, "Well, Max Hall may not have the strongest arm, but we'll be okay if he has good timing."



I remember seeing Nelson make the exact same throw at the spring game. He threw the same type of ball: throwing before the WR made the break. We'll be okay with Nelson at the helm. But Nelson still needs to go out and win the job. He needs to be patient and let routes develop and then hit guys with timing. He needs to make plays and move the team and finish drives with scores.



He needs to give the coaches reason to be patient with Heaps; a reason to be confident that he can be the QB the program needs.
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Cougs_Rule
Kitic wrote: To claim/insinuate the BYU coaches can't evaluate talent and are seriously contemplating giving the reigns of a Top 20 D1 program to an unskilled, untalented player is arrogant.



Kitic, with all due respect, it would seem you are more in Nelson's camp than you admit. Are you really calling Jake "unskilled and untalented?"



Kitic also wrote,

But I have yet to see anything from Nelson to make me believe there's no way he can't get the job done. Nor have I seen anything from Heaps to make me believe he's the only one who can get the job done.



Kitic, I will give you some evidence to consider. One, he struggled to throw the ball. He may settle down--and I hope that explains why he struggled. Two, the job was his to lose and he didnt earn it in spring ball--even to a True Freshman.



I think those are some "things to be seen" that Nelson hasnt done to win the job. Further, how could the coaches possibly in conventional, wise, grounded thinking name Jake as a starter in spring ball. Im afraid its an uphill battle for Nelson and he's got experience, such as it is, but that's the only advantage.
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Brayden Green
Kitic,


Seriously? I guarantee you that the 4-8 Fresno team you are saying is a "little bit of stretch" to be D-1 competition would beat EVERY single team that Heaps has EVER played against by four TDs.




You have nothing here to support your post. Show me evidence that 2006 Fresno or USU would kill any of those playoff teams Jake played against by 4 TD's, or any of the All star, elite teams who played for/against.


College football is a completely different sport than high school football. Just like the NFL is so far above the college game that there is no direct translation.


Yeah, you and Pete Carroll are exactly right that someone like Mark Sanchez can't make an immediate impact. Good call.



I ask again, Kitic. Have you ever played high school football? Or D-1 football? You would be surprised at how similar they are on the "elite-competitive-draft level of high school". True freshman step in and make a difference all the time in college, and rookies make an impact all the time in the NFL. So your point is null that it never happens. You have to be the right kind of player, Jake Heaps is that player. So, have you ever played HS football? D-1 football?

You ask if Nelson looks like a "competitive D-1 quarterback capable of running a BYU offense?" Do you really think the BYU coaching staff is completely incompetent?

First off, that was a take off the old spice commercial meant to be a joke, but the joke so far has been your flamed up response. Who said anything about the staff being incompetent? We are in a rebuilding year. Riley Nelson is not the type of player we normally start. As mentioned, he has happy feet, and throws a wounded duck ball past 20 yards, people compare Doman to Riley all the time, except that Doman was a qb that could run, and Riley is a runner that can throw. BIG DIFFERENCE!


Riley Nelson has legitimate D-1 talent. - he certainly has the tools to be a very good college QB. He has the ability...


No he doesn't. Not at qb, and certainly not in an offense like ours.


Nelson is highly capable of leading BYU to a successful season.


Define "success"... does Nelson win you more games than Heaps? No. Does he lose you more? I think he does, unless they completely revamp the offense, which is a BIG MISTAKE.


But to discount him now, is simply foolish. To discount his efforts on a poor USU team is asinine. To claim that playing high school football is somehow superior to D1 football is ignorant.


What efforts? And are you talking about his D-1 experience again? What effing experience? He lost a lot of games almost 4 years ago. There is little to no experience to be had from that. And the experience to be had from losing to a LOT of crappy teams 4 years ago, can easily be gained by beating a lot of good ones, 10 months ago, albeit at a "lower" level.



To claim/insinuate the BYU coaches can't evaluate talent and are seriously contemplating giving the reigns of a Top 20 D1 program to an unskilled, untalented player is arrogant.


Listen, if you want to take this to a personal level, then let's go ahead. Don't call me arrogant because I can evaluate talent, and you obviously can't. Jake is a way better quarterback than Nelson, fundamentally. If you can't see that, that is your problem, and your ignorance. And they haven't handed him the reigns to anything.


To make your decision on who you feel should be the starting QB two weeks before fall camp is hasty.


Not if you are actually watching who is the better qb, instead of sticking with "tradition" and giving players their due, and a false "experience". Everyone sees it that is watching unbiased. I would love nothing more than for Nelson to be the qb we need, but he's not. Unless he learns to 1) make better reads 2) not get happy feet 3) learn how to throw a better ball and 4) get a stronger arm, he is not who we need. What is wrong with seeing that? He may be a great person, he might be Sno's cousin. He might invent a cure for cancer, but UNLESS he can improve drastically in ALL those areas, he is not a good fit for the offense we have been running the last 15+ years.


I have been in the Nelson camp since the end of last year. I am still in the Nelson camp. But I have always reserved the right to change my mind. Heaps' high school career is very impressive (almost as impressive as Nelson's). His performance during spring ball is very encouraging.


"I reserve the right to argue vehemently for a player, using stats that don't exist, and no apparent knowledge of football, and then change my mind when and (certainly) if the other player is named the starter (and seen to be what he ACTUALLY is, a better quarterback). Way to CYA! Again, are you going on record and saying that Nelson is a better quaterback than Heaps? Has a better arm? Sees the field better? Better Mechanics? or what. "He's a better fit..."



But I have yet to see anything from Nelson to make me believe there's no way he can't get the job done.



Nor have I seen anything from Heaps to make me believe he's the only one who can get the job done.


What is getting the job done to you? Are you saying that it doesn't matter who we put in there? Then let's put in Lark or Munns.

I'm more than willing to change my opinion of the starting QB.


I bet you are.



IF Riley can improve in all those areas, OR if they change completely change the offense to cover his detriments, than I am all for Riley. I don't see either happening.
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SpiffCoug
BlueIsBetter wrote:
I ask again, Kitic. Have you ever played high school football? Or D-1 football? You would be surprised at how similar they are on the "elite-competitive-draft level of high school". True freshman step in and make a difference all the time in college, and rookies make an impact all the time in the NFL. So your point is null that it never happens. You have to be the right kind of player, Jake Heaps is that player. So, have you ever played HS football? D-1 football?

No, I have never played competitive football. Would this be the same Mark Sanchez who had a QB rating (by the college scale) of 110, who threw three TDs and 10 INTs in his last seven starts. If Heaps or Nelson plays at anywhere near the Mark Sanchez level, BYU is in serious trouble. BYU will lose seven or eight games if our QB's rating is that poor and TD:INT ratio is as atrocious as Sanchez's.



The Jets won many games despite Sanchez's play. That said, I do think he's a good QB and will be better this year. BYU doesn't have Derel Revis locking down half the field. We don't have the best defense in our level of football like the Jets did.



True freshman do step in all the time. Just rarely at the QB position. You don't know any more than I do that Jake Heaps is indeed "that player." I think Heaps can be. But I'm willing to give him time to develop.


BlueIsBetter wrote:
First off, that was a take off the old spice commercial meant to be a joke, but the joke so far has been your flamed up response. Who said anything about the staff being incompetent? We are in a rebuilding year. Riley Nelson is not the type of player we normally start. As mentioned, he has happy feet, and throws a wounded duck ball past 20 yards, people compare Doman to Riley all the time, except that Doman was a qb that could run, and Riley is a runner that can throw. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Sorry if I missed the joke. My bad.



No one said that the coaches were incompetent, but you seem to be inferring that if they started Nelson, they would have to be. How else could they be missing the obvious choice in Heaps. You can throw a wounded duck all you want, but if your timing is sound, then you'll be okay.


BlueIsBetter wrote:
Define "success"... does Nelson win you more games than Heaps? No. Does he lose you more? I think he does, unless they completely revamp the offense, which is a BIG MISTAKE.


This has been my contention for a long time. To me "success" is winning 9 games this year. I don't think we're winning any more games with either QB. I don't think Jake Heaps in 2010 is the difference between 11 wins and seven. I think BYU's record will be what it will be regardless of who starts at QB.



THAT is why I want to be patient with Heaps. I don't think we win any more games with him in 2010. But maybe we do in 2011 or 2012 or 2013 or 2014. I haven't seen the reason we need to RUSH his college career. College football is chock full of examples of uber-talented QBs redshirting and being highly, extremely successful.


BlueIsBetter wrote:
Listen, if you want to take this to a personal level, then let's go ahead. Don't call me arrogant because I can evaluate talent, and you obviously can't. Jake is a way better quarterback than Nelson, fundamentally. If you can't see that, that is your problem, and your ignorance. And they haven't handed him the reigns to anything.

I apologize if I took it too a personal level. I will try to refrain in the future. I have to see post anywhere that I feel that Nelson is more talented than Heaps. I have yet to claim that Nelson is a better QB. Heaps is an extremely fundamentally sound QB - he should be after all the time he has spent and money his parents have spent teaching him the ins and outs of the position. Again, Heaps is a very exciting QB prospect and I think he's going to have a stellar career at BYU. Again, why do we need to rush his career? Why can't he be afforded the same opportunity we provided QBs like Mark Wilson, Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Robbie Bosco, and Ty Detmer. Personally, I think John Beck would have been well served to have red-shirted in 2004. It was a mistake to play him as a freshman.


BlueIsBetter wrote:
Not if you are actually watching who is the better qb, instead of sticking with "tradition" and giving players their due, and a false "experience". Everyone sees it that is watching unbiased. I would love nothing more than for Nelson to be the qb we need, but he's not. Unless he learns to 1) make better reads 2) not get happy feet 3) learn how to throw a better ball and 4) get a stronger arm, he is not who we need. What is wrong with seeing that? He may be a great person, he might be Sno's cousin. He might invent a cure for cancer, but UNLESS he can improve drastically in ALL those areas, he is not a good fit for the offense we have been running the last 15+ years.

I'm not wanting Nelson to be the QB because of tradition. I want him to be the QB because I don't think we win any more games with Heaps. Playing Nelson allows Heaps the time to learn and improve without the pressure of winning, and winning now.



He doesn't need to improve in all those areas. He is a good fit for the offense we have - or can be, if the coaches tailor it to his strengths. Nelson can make plays. But he needs to do so. He does need to improve his happy feet and his urge run immediately. And for the record, we've run about three different offense the last 15+ years.



Is he the perfect fit for the offense? I don't think so. Can he get the job done? I think so. Can he do the job well enough that coaches can be patient with Heaps development? I think so.


BlueIsBetter wrote:
"I reserve the right to argue vehemently for a player, using stats that don't exist, and no apparent knowledge of football, and then change my mind when and (certainly) if the other player is named the starter (and seen to be what he ACTUALLY is, a better quarterback). Way to CYA! Again, are you going on record and saying that Nelson is a better quaterback than Heaps? Has a better arm? Sees the field better? Better Mechanics? or what. "He's a better fit..."

Heaven forbid I'm willing to change my mind when it's clear that my current position is incorrect. I hope the coaches aren't as stubborn as you want me to be. I hope the coaches don't stick doggedly to their decision once it's made. I



No I will NOT go on record as saying that Nelson 1) is better QB than Heaps; 2) has a better arm; 3) sees the field better; or 4) has better mechanics. Why because I don't think any of those things. Nor do I think "he's a better fit."



What I do think is that Nelson can be A fit in the offense. That he can run the offense effectively. That he can get the job done. I think, given Heaps' potential and his improvement curve, that if Heaps were a JR like Nelson this wouldn't even be a conversation. I think that in a year or two, Heaps level at that time will be much higher than Nelson's level at this time. I think some great coaching by Doman and Anae is really going to raise Heaps' game, and I want him to have as much time and opportunity to improve.


BlueIsBetter wrote:
What is getting the job done to you? Are you saying that it doesn't matter who we put in there? Then let's put in Lark or Munns.


Correct. As I said before, I don't think it matters who starts at QB this year among the QBs on the roster (Heaps, Lark, Munns, Nelson). Our record will be what it will be. I don't see any QB on our roster who is going to lead us to victory at TCU, at Florida St and likely at Utah.



I'm very excited about Munns. It's too bad he was born the wrong year and month that his mission didn't allow him to get back in time to really compete for the job. I think Lark and Munns are both very talented. I think off all the QBs, Munns might have the most upside. Heaps is clearly the most polished and will likely be the most successful.


kitic77 wrote:
I'm more than willing to change my opinion of the starting QB.
BlueIsBetter wrote:
I bet you are.



IF Riley can improve in all those areas, OR if they change completely change the offense to cover his detriments, than I am all for Riley. I don't see either happening.

Again, what is so wrong about willing to change an incorrect opinion? I don't think Riley has to improve in every area you stated. And I don't the offense has to be completely changed to work for Nelson. Does Riley need to improve? Definitely. Does the offense need to be tailored to his strengths (as opposed to covering his detriments)? Definitely.



Again, I apologize for any personal attack. I prefer the good debate and back and forth.



I believe we had a similar exchange after spring ball when the stats and reports didn't show the gap between the two QBs wasn't as large as you wanted it to be. And I think we're back where we were then.



A few questions for you to move the debate along and prevent humongously long quote/respond/quote/respond posts:



Do you think Riley Nelson can win 8 games in 2010?

Do you think Riley Nelson can win 10 games in 2010?

Do you think Jake Heaps can win 8 games in 2010?

Do you think Jake Heaps can win 10 games in 2010?

Do you think Riley Nelson can lose 6 games in 2010?

Do you think Jake Heaps can lose 6 games in 2010?



Here are my answers: Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No and No.



And finally: Are you willing to change your mind in fall camp if it's clear Nelson is playing better than Heaps?



Because I'm more than willing to change my mind, because I'm rooting for the BYU Cougars and not the BYU quarterback position.
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jonnylingo
The fact that Nelson couldn't outshine the freshman and be named starter with two years under his belt says a lot about jake heaps. The fact that they are even even suggests that jake has a lot more upside than nelson.



nelson is very talented but jake has already proven that he can at least hang in d1 the way he performed in spring ball against a d1 defense. its arguable who did better in spring ball (see the numerous debates between sno and mars) but hte fact that jake came in and moved the ball against byu's defense right off the bat suggests he is already at a very high level.



he is a quick learner as well. I expect him to clearly beat out nelson this fall and get the starting job. he will get better and better every week while nelson has already had two years to get better and better and is apparently at jakes level right now.
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SpiffCoug
Mingjai wrote:
In my mind, it's 1978-79 all over again, when BYU had a great QB Wilson competing with McMahon, who would ultimately become one of, if not the best, BYU QB ever. The two split time in 1978 (Wilson was a junior and McMahon a sophomore), winning the WAC and going to the Holiday Bowl. BYU decided to redshirt McMahon after that season to allow Wilson to finish his eligibilty, while still giving McMahon two more years to start.



While it may not seem like much, redshirting McMahon also allowed BYU to gain some national momentum, as BYU went 11-1 under Wilson in 1979, and 12-1 and 11-2 in 1980 and 1981 under McMahon. Imagine if McMahon had used up his eligibility in 1980--it would have forced Young into action a year early, and I'm not sure if he would have been ready. BYU's national championship in 1984 was the culmination of a 6 year period in which BYU had 5 seasons of 11 wins or more. Had 1981 been rebuilding year instead of a 11-2 bowl winning season, I don't know if BYU gains the recognition be voted as national champions in 1984.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I'd be perfectly okay with a scenario like this to play out. I think it's something worth the coaches time to consider.
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SpiffCoug
jonnylingo wrote:
The fact that Nelson couldn't outshine the freshman and be named starter with two years under his belt says a lot about jake heaps. The fact that they are even even suggests that jake has a lot more upside than nelson.



nelson is very talented but jake has already proven that he can at least hang in d1 the way he performed in spring ball against a d1 defense. its arguable who did better in spring ball (see the numerous debates between sno and mars) but hte fact that jake came in and moved the ball against byu's defense right off the bat suggests he is already at a very high level.



he is a quick learner as well. I expect him to clearly beat out nelson this fall and get the starting job. he will get better and better every week while nelson has already had two years to get better and better and is apparently at jakes level right now.

Agreed, the fact that Nelson didn't completely outshine him does speak well of Jake's talent. And does give cause for great enthusiasm for his future.



In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised to see Heaps having made great strides over the summer and for there to be very little doubt as to who should start.



Heaps has shown the ability to improve. Go back and look his highlights from his sophomore, junior and senior seasons. Each year his arm got stronger, reads quicker and pocket presence better. If he shows similar improvement, he's going to be very good. I just really hope we can find a way to give him an extra year to get that improvement without the pressure of winning.
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blue42
wow I really don't think this horse is completely dead yet!! I think we can beat a little more life out of it. :skeptic:



I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.



The question I will ask is if Riley is such a crappy QB than why is everyone in the Heaps camp so willing to compare his talent against crap? I think the calculations should be as follows..... If Riley = crap and Heaps = to Riley in spring ball than Heaps = crap, if not than Heaps = a very good QB and Heaps = Riley in spring ball than Riley = a very good QB.



I think we have 4 very good and talented QB's on the team this year and I trust 1000000% the coaching staff to do what is absolutely the best for the program, if they choose Heaps than fantastic, if they choose Riley again fantastic, if they choose the moron who sits next to me at the games and was yelling last year to replace Hall than fantastic. I know the coaches know a ton more about football than I do, and I do know a lot, but I know Bronco and Co will make better decisions than I could.
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frdbtr
blue42 wrote:
wow I really don't think this horse is completely dead yet!! I think we can beat a little more life out of it. :skeptic:



I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.



The question I will ask is if Riley is such a crappy QB than why is everyone in the Heaps camp so willing to compare his talent against crap? I think the calculations should be as follows..... If Riley = crap and Heaps = to Riley in spring ball than Heaps = crap, if not than Heaps = a very good QB and Heaps = Riley in spring ball than Riley = a very good QB.



I think we have 4 very good and talented QB's on the team this year and I trust 1000000% the coaching staff to do what is absolutely the best for the program, if they choose Heaps than fantastic, if they choose Riley again fantastic, if they choose the moron who sits next to me at the games and was yelling last year to replace Hall than fantastic. I know the coaches know a ton more about football than I do, and I do know a lot, but I know Bronco and Co will make better decisions than I could.


The funny thing to me is; we have 2 very highly recruited/talented guys that are being completely ignored by everyone right now in this argument. Munns and Lark are going to have something to say about who is the starter next year after all is said and done IMO.
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Brayden Green
Kitic, great post. I appreciate seeing your side of things, and for the continued respect we both have for each other. I am sorry for escalating my posts the way I did to be so inflamatory. I responded to aggression with aggression, and that was wrong of me. Guess it wasn't my day. I will take two metaphorical chill pills and continue our discussion.



- For the record, I am a Jets fan (born under a bad sign :lol: ), and Sanchez did great taking over a new offense, with no offensive tools. As you mentioned, the jets are a blitz first, defensive team and the fact he was able to turn few games late from losses to wins is a great job for a rookie in that position. I expect the same type of performance from either byu qb this season, in that either qb will start at level A, and gain experience to put himself at level B towards the end of the season. The problem with our season, is that two of our top 4 losable games come at the beginning of the season. So we have to go with the qb that knows the offense best and can run it best at that point. Nelson is not suited to run our offense, as his tools provide a running threat, but do not provide the checkdown, timing, and arm strengh (which is accuracy for long throws). Think last year, without the deep ball are strength, and add that to the fact that our receivers including Jacobsen create little to no separation (not sure yet if that was designed, due to having Pitta and George over the middle.) I think it is a little of both. We haven't had 3 offensive styles in the last 15 years. It has basically been the same offense with a few subsets. We use more tight ends, because we don't start faster players, we start bigger and more developed players (insert argument for players going on missions and coming back monster-men here). So we almost always run a two TE offense, with a tailback and 2 wide outs. It has been very effective the last 20 years. You can argue that under Crowton we did things a little differently, and we did, but Doman and Staley were still able to play our normal sets, just had a few added plays. The issue I have is, Nelson can't play our offense as/is. When you start Nelson, you take away the deep ball, and more importantly you take away the 30-40 yard strike over the middle to our tight ends. He simply doesn't have the arm Hall does, and Hall is one of our weaker armed QB's. You add a running threat, but need to add a lot of qb boots, option plays, etc. which is a lot of work for 11 starters and 10 rotators to memorize and become familiar with. 1 practice basically = a new play sufficiently learned, and then one more practice for the 2nd and 3rd teams. My argument is that today, right now, Heaps is better at checkdown, timing, and accuracy. And that has nothing to do with the speed of the game. That translates directly, with a little pitch and catch practice. The speed of the game is knowing the defense is faster, and speeding up your mental "time's up" clock. It is no easy task for a qb, but people have done it, and everything I have seen from Jake leads me to believe he can.
True freshman do step in all the time. Just rarely at the QB position. You don't know any more than I do that Jake Heaps is indeed "that player." I think Heaps can be. But I'm willing to give him time to develop.

In a perfect world, we have that time, but I don't think we do. There is a big difference between - losing and not losing - a couple games, as far as recruiting goes. We don't get the highly touted Non LDS guy having an 8-4 season. We get him by having 5 consecutive 10+ win seasons. To lose now, even though it is rebuilding, is taking away from everything that we've done before now. For example, if in it's last "qualifying" year of evaluation for the BCS the MWC goes out and lays a goose egg, everything we have done up to now means nothing. You know who knows this better than you or I? Bronco and the staff.


This has been my contention for a long time. To me "success" is winning 9 games this year. I don't think we're winning any more games with either QB. I don't think Jake Heaps in 2010 is the difference between 11 wins and seven. I think BYU's record will be what it will be regardless of who starts at QB.

THAT is why I want to be patient with Heaps. I don't think we win any more games with him in 2010. But maybe we do in 2011 or 2012 or 2013 or 2014. I haven't seen the reason we need to RUSH his college career. College football is chock full of examples of uber-talented QBs redshirting and being highly, extremely successful.


This is probably the main part where we differ. I think Jake as an athlete, decision maker, and most importantly to me, a byu qb that we don't need to change the offense for (allowing us to spend precious practices doing other stuff), wins us that extra game or two. But let's pretend that it doesn't. Let's pretend that starting Riley gives you 8 and Jake gives you 8. Even Steven. Then, to me, you start the better quarterback who has the most potential, PROVIDED that he can handle the pressure. If Heaps doesn't cost you any wins, then you give him that gametime experience, and let him pull from that the next 3 years after. Riley is as good as almost as good as he is going to get. He has had ample time to prove himself a starter, and never has. He didn't beat Gaskins last year for the job, and won't beat Jake for 2, if he even beats him for one. Again, sitting out for an entire year learning campus life and the offense, won't do for you what 2 or 3 games experience will do. So if Jake and Nelson give us the same amount of wins (again, I don't think they do) then we start Jake, IF HE CAN HANDLE IT, so that the next few years he can use that experience. Now if we RS Jake, and give him time to learn the offense and do this next year, of course that is the best scenario for him. But for cougar football? There is a huge difference in recruiting a 7-8 win season, versus a 9,10,11 win season. Our recruiting classes the last 3 years have shown that. I would like to continue recruiting at a crazy clip, Jake gives us a chance to do that.
I'm not wanting Nelson to be the QB because of tradition. I want him to be the QB because I don't think we win any more games with Heaps. Playing Nelson allows Heaps the time to learn and improve without the pressure of winning, and winning now.

I am right there with you, I want nothing more than for Nelson to be the qb we need, and RS Jake. I hope it happens, but I am extremely doubtful it will. That sun has set.


He doesn't need to improve in all those areas. He is a good fit for the offense we have - or can be, if the coaches tailor it to his strengths. Nelson can make plays. But he needs to do so. He does need to improve his happy feet and his urge run immediately. And for the record, we've run about three different offense the last 15+ years.

He's not a good fit for our offense, unmodified. And he does need to improve on all those levels, if we want an 8+ win season.





Do you think Riley Nelson can win 8 games in 2010?

- Yeah, if they change the offense, which is a big mistake. I think we are shooting for 8 wins with Riley, and we most likely getting there.



Do you think Riley Nelson can win 10 games in 2010?

- Not a chance in hell. I wish, just isn't happening.

Do you think Jake Heaps can win 8 games in 2010?

- Yes

Do you think Jake Heaps can win 10 games in 2010?

- Yes, especially including a bowl victory as a 10th.



Do you think Riley Nelson can lose 6 games in 2010?

- Nope

Do you think Jake Heaps can lose 6 games in 2010?

- Nope

Here are my answers: Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No and No.



And finally: Are you willing to change your mind in fall camp if it's clear Nelson is playing better than Heaps?

- Nothing would make me happier.



Because I'm more than willing to change my mind, because I'm rooting for the BYU Cougars and not the BYU quarterback position.

- good, me too. Unfortunately, for the time being, they are connected. :lol:
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S
scott715
What Jake needs to learn is to read the D1 defense schemes. He might be able to learn that this summer. If not it will delay him from seeing the field.
J
jonnylingo
We are lucky. four very talented qbs. awesome problem to have. they all seem like stand up guys from what i have heard about them as well. it makes for a difficult decision. fall camp is going to be exciting. I just hope there are not any serious injuries.
M
Mars
blue42 wrote:
I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.

Actually, I think I'm one of many who saw Heaps slaughter his competition. Nelson is a good kid, but he wasn't playing on the same level as Jake at all.
B
Brayden Green
Mars wrote:
I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.

Actually, I think I'm one of many who saw Heaps slaughter his competition. Nelson is a good kid, but he wasn't playing on the same level as Jake at all.


I second the motion.
C
Cougs_Rule
"There can BE only one."



Had to say it before "somebody" else did. Maybe he's watching HIghlander and is slow to respond.



Actually, I really think there will be two: Jake starts; Riley comes in intermittently to give breathers to Jake so he can get some in-game coaching, until he gets his feet under him mid season.
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