Archived Topic

Udub @ BYU: Each Fanbase Expects Easy Win

by PurpleReign · 7/26/2010

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craigoscarson
Cougy_Monster wrote:
Come on guys. Let's be nice to our Purple guest. It's nice having the opponent around. He has every right to be a Homer and support his team. Think if the yewts even had one such fan how lucky they would be.



I can easily see how one would think that the only top QB recruits that end up at BYU do so because they are Mormon. Instead of getting worked into a frenzy over that comment just point out the historical facts to make your point.....



Ty Detmer, not LDS when recruited to BYU



McMahon, not LDS



Sarkisian, not LDS



In fact Doman was the first returned missionary QB that was highly successful, followed by Beck and then Hall. Before those 3 guys the team was always better recruiting non-LDS QBs or having the LDS guys skip the mission experience. Now we get the best of both worlds.



Now, either way you look at the argument, the best part is that every year there is at least 1 great LDS QB in the country and every 4 or 6 years there is a superhero LDS QB and BYU has historically had right of first refusal on these guys. It's a great position to be in.


Ironically ZacSooner was pretty well behaved til about a month before gameday. Then he lost his mind.... not sure he ever recovered. His lowest point was when he attempted to explain to us how even OUs 3rd string were high school americas and would beat BYU. Maybe they should have played...
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BoiseBYU
Dang, but if Purple Reign has not descended into a Purple Haze
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CougarPeasant
PurpleReign wrote:

Yeah, Hawaii and Texas Tech put up huge passing numbers too. Like I said, system offense.



And Jake Heaps went to BYU because he is Mormon, don't kid yourself if you think it was for any other reason. Outside of the Mormon community BYU is not high on many peoples radar. That is why BYU does not get elite prospects unless they are Mormon, it's the nature of a religious school in a lower tier conference (ND and SMU (20 years ago) being a couple of exceptions of schools who transcended their religious affiliations, in part because of success but also because of simple numbers, there are far more Christians than Mormons playing football).


You realize that Mormons are Christians don't you? I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by your statement, but the reality is Mormons, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are Christians. Your statement implies they are not. If you had said, non-Mormon Christians, or Christians of other denominations, that would be accurate.



As for BYU's QB dominance, the record speaks for itself going back to Virgil Carter. And as has been pointed out, there have been a fair share of non-LDS QB's recruited to and played for BYU. I believe Marc Wilson was another non-LDS QB, from the Seattle area of I recall correctly. Heaps came to BYU because of its reputation for being a passing-oriented program and for its history as a QB school. His religion would have had no bearing if it was not a consistent top 25 program with a history of great quarterbacks.



But when it comes to producing NFL QBs, Miami and USC need be mentioned as well. Both have been very successful in getting QBs to the next level.



For me, this is a non-starter in smack talk. Both programs have a rich football tradition, unfortunately, UW hasn't had much success the last decade, while BYU has recovered and is still climbing. The scoreboard is the best smack talk and right now, BYU has SCOREBOARD over UW and will continue to do so after Sept 4.
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SpiffCoug
CougarPeasant wrote:
it's the nature of a religious school in a lower tier conference (ND and SMU (20 years ago) being a couple of exceptions of schools who transcended their religious affiliations, in part because of success but also because of simple numbers, there are far more Christians than Mormons playing football).


You realize that Mormons are Christians don't you? I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by your statement, but the reality is Mormons, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are Christians. Your statement implies they are not. If you had said, non-Mormon Christians, or Christians of other denominations, that would be accurate.

I think a good argument can be made that Mormons are christian without being Christian. We believe Christ to be our Savior as all christians do, but we don't adhere to the Nicean and other Creeds (Trinity, etc.) like Christianity at large does.
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Guest
kitic77 wrote:
PurpleReign wrote:
it's the nature of a religious school in a lower tier conference (ND and SMU (20 years ago) being a couple of exceptions of schools who transcended their religious affiliations, in part because of success but also because of simple numbers, there are far more Christians than Mormons playing football).


You realize that Mormons are Christians don't you? I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by your statement, but the reality is Mormons, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are Christians. Your statement implies they are not. If you had said, non-Mormon Christians, or Christians of other denominations, that would be accurate.

I think a good argument can be made that Mormons are christian without being Christian. We believe Christ to be our Savior as all christians do, but we don't adhere to the Nicean and other Creeds (Trinity, etc.) like Christianity at large does.


An interesting debate on the matter.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/blogalogue/mormondebate/
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gmj81
Look, I've sat back and kept out of the fray for awhile now just observing... But it's time to jump in and share some truth now.



Purple Reign, you have been a good guest here compared to many that we have had. I appreciate that and welcome you to stay on as long as you want. In the end, all we can really do is share our opinion of what will transpire on September 4th because no one really knows how it will play out. Once the game is over, then the "I told you so's" can begin.



But when it comes to the discussion of who is "QB U", the part that sticks out to me like a sore thumb is the "U". I don't care what they did in the pros. I don't care where they were drafted. We're not talking "QB Pros" here, we're talking "QB U". As in what they accomplished at the collegiate level. And there are few schools who even come close to comparing to what BYU has done with regards to the passing game. Setting aside the "BCS" or "traditional power school" media bias, look at what BYU has accomlished... an undisputed (by the voters, who decided it at the time; fans will always dispute each and every one, just like I claim USC didn't win one in 2003) national championship and many many top individual awards like the Heisman, Davey O'Brien, Sammy Baugh, Outland, Doak Walker, etc. despite the media bias towards the bigger programs. Their accomplishments we're so great, they couldn't be ignored or cast aside even if they thought it was a byproduct of a "system" offense.



Do you really think there aren't "systems" in the NFL? Every team has their own strengths and strategies that may differ from the norm. Is the only reason Miami has had success recently because they incorporated the "wildcat"? Maybe so but that didn't stop them from winning, getting to the playoffs, and exciting the fans. Or you do you think that the Colts and Pats play like every other team in the league? How about the New Orleans Saints? How did they win the super bowl with a QB who has less than ideal physical measureables? Because there is such a thing as intangibles and intelligence. Things BYU is rarely short on. Shoot, we've had to rely solely on them in many cases because we couldn't get the premier athlete to come to Provo. Why should that be a knock on our collegiate success?



I also find it interesting that people continue to talk about BYU or Hawaii or Texas Tech's "system" being the key to their success. If by "system" you mean, a wide open passing attack that looks for the open receiver, then I guess we're guilty as charged. But how that should be something that is used to belittle a team's accomplishments is beyond me. It's obvious we haven't always gotten the best athletes (though that is changing under Bronco) and so we have needed to play to our strengths. But if your athletes are so superior, why can't they stop this "system"? And why are more and more college and NFL teams adopting the west-coast passing attack and "spread" that originated under great minds like Lavell Edwards and Bill Walsh? Are you trying to tell me that Florida, West Virginia, Michigan, Cincinnati, Oregon don't run "spread"-type gimmicky "system" offenses? Please explain the difference to me. Because BYU runs and has run a more pro-style offense than any of them going back to the 70's. Again, there is a reason why the NFL and top BCS conferences are becoming more and more passing leagues.



And let's get one thing clear... It's not like BYU's offense is based on a gimmicky, trickeration-type system. We run an execution-dependent scheme that can and has been stopped. But you have to be not only athletically superior but execution-ally sound in order to do so. Why aren't you calling for the head of teams who rely on the trickeration aspect to win big games like the SEC team who had their little 5-foot-nothing RB "hiding" behind the center and then took the snap around the corner undetected? Or the teams who continue to use the "wild-cat" or a "running QB" type "system" (ahe, Jake Locker, cough, cough...). Can't you line it up and play like the "rest" of college football with a passing QB and a traditional RB? Why you gotta have your QB play an nontraditional type offense in order to gain an advantage? I'll tell you why... for the same reason the American revolutionaries didn't line up and use the same type of warfare that the Brits incorporated... because they'd have gotten slaughtered. BYU couldn't compete with the "3 yards and a cloud of dust"-type system that was so popular 20-30 years ago (but a "system" nonetheless) so they incorporated something totally new. And something that revolutionized their sport much like guerrilla warfare did for the Americans and the rest of the world. Similarly, UW couldn't compete this year without the threat of a running QB. They just aren't there yet. But why should they have to be limited to what the rest of college football does? If they have an advantage that could be utilized to their benefit, use it! Just win baby!



Again, it's exciting to compare the success of what your schools players do at the next level but in my opinion, that is not the discussion we are talking about. "QB U" keeps it defined within the walls of the college stadium. What has your school done in the college arena? That's what matters in this discussion.





P.S. as others have well pointed out, BYU has tradtionally gotten quite a few talented (perhaps overlooked but talented nonetheless) non-LDS players to come and play for them. And it all happens thanks to the tradition of winning and success the program has experienced. It's easy to discount a lot of them because they may have converted while at BYU but they didn't show up to campus as Mormons. There have been years where nearly 50% of the team has been non-LDS. Recently, that number has been down somewhat in part due to the emphasis Bronco has placed in his recruiting of looking for "fit" players but even moreso due to the dip in success BYU experienced in the early part of the decade. If BYU isn't winning, why would a non-LDS player necessarily want to come here when they have other options? But when BYU is winning a lot of players, both LDS and non-LDS want to be part of that. Nearly half of our top-25 recruiting class last year weren't Mormon. And many of them were very accomplished and successful in high school, some who even picked BYU over UW. Enjoy the list:



*** DeQuan Everett

*** Josh Quezada

** Drew Phillips

*** Blair Tushaus

** Kori Gaines

*** Jordan Johnson

*** Tayo Fabuluje

*** Collin Keoshian



Or how about Haouli Jamora who was commited to the Cougars prior to changing to UW?



And sometimes the LDS ones do choose to go to schools other than BYU. Do the names Kona Schwenke, Manti Te'o, Chris Badger, Dallas Lloyd, Taysom Hill, Xavier Sua'Filo, Tony Meoaki, Ben Olson, Christian Tupou, Al Afalava, Haloti Ngata, Todd Heap, Stanley Havili, Kevin Prince, Jarett Finau, Taniela Tupou, Everett Thompson ring any bells? At least a fear of those names should be real familiar. BYU doesn't have the market on LDS players any more than ND does on the Catholic ones. It may be a unique tie that draws them to the university but it doesn't guarantee anything. Jake Heaps could have gone to any school he wanted. And if you really knew the Heaps, you'd know Jake has his sight set solely on the NFL. If he thought anywhere besides BYU could help more with that, that's where he'd be this very minute. What's more, if you knew Mormon culture at all, you would realize that players who don't have mission plans (like Heaps) generally tend to shy away from BYU as they feel they'll get pressured by coaches, teammates and classmates to go on one. Again, another reason for Jake to go anywhere else but BYU. He's at BYU because he feels he can win here, feels BYU will prepare him for the next level and loves the coaches he has that will help him to get there.
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PurpleReign
Whoa, I set off a smack grenade!



I will try to reply to some of these posts in a little while, but maybe I was a bit sharp in my comments, but go back and look at the ones directed at me leading up to my own comments (whew, butchered sentence).



Some of you have kind of poked and prodded me into a corner with your BYU superiority complex (at least that's what it seems like from my point of view at times), and are surprised when I make comments that are a little more blunt.



Anyways, I do enjoy talking football with you all, and even some of the friendly banter :crazy:
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Mars
craigoscarson wrote:
Ironically ZacSooner was pretty well behaved til about a month before gameday. Then he lost his mind.... not sure he ever recovered. His lowest point was when he attempted to explain to us how even OUs 3rd string were high school americas and would beat BYU. Maybe they should have played...

Smacking Zac around about his "1st-Team All-American O-Lineman/TE" that wasn't even a starter made my summer. And then watching that player embarrass himself against BYU play after play after play (in person) made my Fall.
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Mars
PurpleReign wrote:
Some of you have kind of poked and prodded me into a corner with your BYU superiority complex (at least that's what it seems like from my point of view at times), and are surprised when I make comments that are a little more blunt. Anyways, I do enjoy talking football with you all, and even some of the friendly banter :crazy:

Guilty as charged. I'm chief Homer in charge of smack-talking fans from other teams who visit our board.



P.S. Funny how no one labels teams that go 0-12 as "system" programs. ;)



That's how I roll. :D
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frdbtr
PurpleReign wrote:
Whoa, I set off a smack grenade!



I will try to reply to some of these posts in a little while, but maybe I was a bit sharp in my comments, but go back and look at the ones directed at me leading up to my own comments (whew, butchered sentence).



Some of you have kind of poked and prodded me into a corner with your BYU superiority complex (at least that's what it seems like from my point of view at times), and are surprised when I make comments that are a little more blunt.



Anyways, I do enjoy talking football with you all, and even some of the friendly banter :crazy:


Every fan has the right to believe that his team is going to win a game when they are both 0-0 in the summer. Unfortunately, this belief comes off as arrogance to opposing fans on their message board, especially when you throw the "superior conference" in our face. Frankly, I don't associate BCS affiliation with superiority. Finally, you have to admit that BYU currently is the better team then your Huskies. I think that Sark is a good coach and is going to get Washington back to where it should be, having said that, even Don James couldn't bring Washington from 0-12 status back to Bowl team in 2 years, and Sark has a lot to learn about being a head coach. You are bringing a team that didn't make a bowl last year to one of the toughest places to play in all of college football and for some reason you expect its most rabid fans to believe you when you tell us your team is going to win.
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Lawboy
It took Bronco 2 years to turn BYU around. Just sayin.....
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frdbtr
Lawboy wrote:
It took Bronco 2 years to turn BYU around. Just sayin.....


BYU hadn't fallen nearly as far as UW has. the 2004 team was a couple plays away from being in a bowl game. 2 years ago UW was 0-12....Just sayin.
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Cougs_Rule
Well Reign, it was fun while it lasted. Glad to see you take a deep breath. Nice recovery. We'd all rather join forces to pick on an upcoming opponent than in-fighting with each other over Heaps vs Nelson.

Too bad Sark wants out of future games. Would have been fun to watch heaps and montana battle it out.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
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Lawboy
frdbtr wrote:
It took Bronco 2 years to turn BYU around. Just sayin.....


BYU hadn't fallen nearly as far as UW has. the 2004 team was a couple plays away from being in a bowl game. 2 years ago UW was 0-12....Just sayin.


And the reason they wee 0-12 was because they did not play UNLV, UNM, Wyoming that year. And lost their QB for the year the game after BYU played them. seriously, the last few Crowton years were HORRIBLE and can not be understated, even if we won 4 games. Was a mess, just like UW.
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frdbtr
Lawboy wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
It took Bronco 2 years to turn BYU around. Just sayin.....


BYU hadn't fallen nearly as far as UW has. the 2004 team was a couple plays away from being in a bowl game. 2 years ago UW was 0-12....Just sayin.


And the reason they wee 0-12 was because they did not play UNLV, UNM, Wyoming that year. And lost their QB for the year the game after BYU played them. seriously, the last few Crowton years were HORRIBLE and can not be understated, even if we won 4 games. Was a mess, just like UW.


BYU was 5-7 in 2004 and was a missed fg against boise state and a fumble away against UNLV of being 7-5 and in a bowl game. Yes, the Crowton years were bad but BYU was mediocre those years, not horrible. Oh, and by the way, they lost to UNLV and UNM in 2004.
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snoscythe
Lawboy wrote:
And the reason they wee 0-12 .


Huh.



Never figured you for irishman.
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PurpleReign
I agree about the schedule, I was disappointed when it got cut short. I was looking forward to Montana vs Heaps for the next few years. Given all the history and crossed paths (Sark) between UW and BYU, it would have made for a fun rivalry period.
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Italics
BlueIsBetter wrote:
It looks like this years version of ZacSooner has finally shown himself, with - GASP - Mormon comments, to boot.


hahahaha... that is JUST what I was thinking the other day.



I remember good old zacsooner... played "mr.nice guy" until BYU ruined OU's entire season, then he was all about the excuse making "we're better than you guys, you're a mid-major piece of crap that should've lost" shenanigans. He's probably busy right now praying that BYU never gets into the Big 12.
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PurpleReign
Italics wrote:
It looks like this years version of ZacSooner has finally shown himself, with - GASP - Mormon comments, to boot.


hahahaha... that is JUST what I was thinking the other day.



I remember good old zacsooner... played "mr.nice guy" until BYU ruined OU's entire season, then he was all about the excuse making "we're better than you guys, you're a mid-major piece of crap that should've lost" shenanigans. He's probably busy right now praying that BYU never gets into the Big 12.




Aw come on, I don't think I even came close to approaching that level of douchebaggery (is that a word?).
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Italics
^^^^ you haven't.... yet ;)
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