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I hate the idea of independence

by jonnylingo · 8/3/2010

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A
allcoug
CannonCougar85 wrote:
The only reason they didn't is because of the agreement BYU had with Utah that they would stick together, a fact also confirmed by my friend. That agreement is now gone and it is exactly what Holmoe was referring to when he made his "doors opening" comments earlier this summer.


This, in my opinion, is the elephant in the room. With Utah leaving on their own (and breaking a verbal commitment with BYU that we never broke) it has allowed us to explore every possibility without feeling guilty about what happens to little brother.
J
jonnylingo
CannonCougar85 wrote:
How bout you show me the ESPN salesmen beating down BYU's door and then we will talk. I know that ESPN likes BYU but where is the proof that they would be willing to give BYU an exclusive contract if we went independant.


Let me tell you a true story to enlighten you on the subject. I have told this story before on other threads.



A good friend of mine works at BYU. He works in the Athletic Department. He is very much in the know with BYU athletics. So much in fact that nothing happens in BYU athletics without him knowing about it first.



A few years back the MWC was at the negotiating table with ESPN. My friend was in person at that very table. ESPN presents a contract to the MWC for X amount of dollars. The MWC looks at the contract and says that X amount of dollars is too small and demands more money. ESPN then tells the MWC essentially this, "You don't understand, this contract is to get BYU. We want BYU."



The MWC declined and thus the MTN was born.



Is that same deal on the table? I am not as confident as you and your anonymous source.



anyway, so what, more money but we become loners not attached to a conference. you have not even mentioned bow tie ins. where are we going to go bowling if we have a good season?

It is my opinion that BYU could have right then and there gone independent. The only reason they didn't is because of the agreement BYU had with Utah that they would stick together, a fact also confirmed by my friend. That agreement is now gone and it is exactly what Holmoe was referring to when he made his "doors opening" comments earlier this summer.



If BYU went independent they would be on ESPN 4, 5, 6+ times per year.
J
jonnylingo
didnt' the vegas bowl just reup with the mwc for years into the future?
S
scott715
Yes but does it have an out if the conference changes memberships?
Y
YNot
I would think that BYU could easily negotiate deals with the Las Vegas Bowl and the Poinsettia Bowl to have a place to land, a la Notre Dame and Navy. The Sun Bowl had a deal where it had to take a Big East team 2 out of every 4 years and the Gator Bowl had the occasional option to select Notre Dame.



In BYU's case, if not in a BCS bowl, the likely matchups would initially be with MWC and PAC 12 teams in Las Vegas or San Diego. BYU could also explore future opportunities with the Hawaii Bowl and probably the Holiday Bowl; tie-ins with the PAC 12 and the Big XII(X).
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L
Lawboy
Notre Dame seems to have no trouble finding a bowl game to play in each year. They usually bail because they suck, but the options are there for them and Navy, so it could happen.
F
frdbtr
CannonCougar85 wrote:
How bout you show me the ESPN salesmen beating down BYU's door and then we will talk. I know that ESPN likes BYU but where is the proof that they would be willing to give BYU an exclusive contract if we went independant.


Let me tell you a true story to enlighten you on the subject. I have told this story before on other threads.



A good friend of mine works at BYU. He works in the Athletic Department. He is very much in the know with BYU athletics. So much in fact that nothing happens in BYU athletics without him knowing about it first.



A few years back the MWC was at the negotiating table with ESPN. My friend was in person at that very table. ESPN presents a contract to the MWC for X amount of dollars. The MWC looks at the contract and says that X amount of dollars is too small and demands more money. ESPN then tells the MWC essentially this, "You don't understand, this contract is to get BYU. We want BYU."



The MWC declined and thus the MTN was born.



It is my opinion that BYU could have right then and there gone independent. The only reason they didn't is because of the agreement BYU had with Utah that they would stick together, a fact also confirmed by my friend. That agreement is now gone and it is exactly what Holmoe was referring to when he made his "doors opening" comments earlier this summer.



If BYU went independent they would be on ESPN 4, 5, 6+ times per year.


First of all the contract you are referring to is the one that was a pittance compared to our current contract with comcast and the mountain, plus it was the contract where ESPN wanted the conference to play any day of the week that ESPN wanted and the contract where the MWC gave them the finger and went elsewhere. I have heard the story you are referring to and frankly, you are saying 2+2=10 with your conjecture. ESPN wanted BYU in the past, ESPN told MWC that we only want you because we want BYU thus if BYU goes independant, we negotiate a deal with them. I don't buy it.
F
frdbtr
allcoug wrote:



Done what in the past, been independant?


Scheduled great non conference games during the season:



1992

OCT 24 Notre Dame

OCT 31 Penn St.



1993

OCT 9 UCLA

OCT 16 Notre Dame

OCT 23 Fresno State.



1994

OCT 15 Notre Dame

OCT 29 Arizona St.

NOV 5 N.E. Louisiana



1995

OCT 14 Arizona St.

NOV 4 Tulsa

NOV 25 Fresno St.



1996

SEP 28 Southern Methodist

OCT 19 Tulsa



1998

OCT 24 San Jose State



1999

OCT 9 California



2000

SEP 30 Syracuse



2003

OCT 30 Boise State

NOV 15 Notre Dame



2005

OCT 22 Notre Dame


did you notice that most of the "BYU has done it in the past" scheduling that you refer to is before the BCS (1996).
S
StatsCougar
frdbtr wrote:
frdbtr wrote:



Done what in the past, been independant?


Scheduled great non conference games during the season:



1992

OCT 24 Notre Dame

OCT 31 Penn St.



1993

OCT 9 UCLA

OCT 16 Notre Dame

OCT 23 Fresno State.



1994

OCT 15 Notre Dame

OCT 29 Arizona St.

NOV 5 N.E. Louisiana



1995

OCT 14 Arizona St.

NOV 4 Tulsa

NOV 25 Fresno St.



1996

SEP 28 Southern Methodist

OCT 19 Tulsa



1998

OCT 24 San Jose State



1999

OCT 9 California



2000

SEP 30 Syracuse



2003

OCT 30 Boise State

NOV 15 Notre Dame



2005

OCT 22 Notre Dame


did you notice that most of the "BYU has done it in the past" scheduling that you refer to is before the BCS (1996).


In addition to that, the:

1996

SEP 28 Southern Methodist

OCT 19 Tulsa



1998

OCT 24 San Jose State



Were conference games in the 16 team WAC if I recall correctly. Atleas TULSE SMU SJSU were all apart of the WAC at the time.
M
Mingjai
allcoug wrote:
Our home schedule this year doesn't just stink....it is embarrassing. If it wasn't for Washington it may be the worst home schedule EVER! The losers of the MWC have only gotten worse over the years. Going independent will only make our schedule better - it sure couldn't get worse. I have know doubt that if we didn't HAVE to play the losers of the MWC then we could easily get good quality teams to play us during the year. You don't think Louisville, Rutgers, Houston, Fresno St., Hawaii, South Florida, Ol' Miss, Cincinnati, Villanova, Memphis, SMU, Tulsa, (should I go on) wouldn't love to play us during the season? Throw in a couple of teams from BCS conferences and a few MWC teams (Air Force, BSU, TCU) every year and then we all of a sudden have a great schedule.


I disagree with you about scheduling. Why do you think any Big East or SEC team would love to play BYU? I'm positive that Louisville, Rutgers, USF, Cincinnati, or Ole Miss aren't chomping at the bit to play BYU--will it help their recruiting? Not likely. Will it help their national status? Probably not enough to make a difference. If they really want to play BYU, why don't we have them on our future schedule? Because we're an MWC team? Would independence change the perception of BYU?



And why would BYU want to play Villanova in anything except basketball? Playing FCS teams doesn't help your strength of schedule. BYU played two great FCS teams--N. Iowa and E. Washington--and we didn't see the fanbase get too excited about that.



Some of the problem with the current home schedule could have been alleviated if the MWC didn't insist on taking the easy way out placing BSU in Utah's place in the MWC rotation. BSU should have taken UNLV, New Mexico, or SDSU's place in the rotation, with the displaced school taking Utah's slot. At least BSU would be able to offset TCU, Air Force, and CSU on the other side of the schedule.


allcoug wrote:

It's time for us to go independent. We can always get back into a loser conference if we want to. With Utah getting suckered into going to the PAC 10 we can now go on to bigger and better things. We no longer have to feel guilty about moving on and leaving Utah behind - we have finally cut the apron strings.



But...I'll be in the stands this year for every game watching BYU destroy the high school teams of the MWC.


How is now the time to go independent? I would say now is the time to stay put and see how the current BCS cycle plays out--all indicators are that the BCS won't be able to ignore the MWC, especially if BSU and TCU have the years everyone is expecting from them. If BYU stays and the MWC gets a BCS autobid, then BYU will simply need to beat a conference consisting of TCU, BSU, and a few high school teams in order to make a BCS payday. I'd take that over independence any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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frdbtr
Another thing on independance. Why do you think that Notre Dame turns down most bowl games unless they are BCS bowls? Is it because they are elite snobs who think that if thier 6-6 team doesn't get invited to a BCS bowl they are going to take their ball and go home, or do you think it is because unless they get to a BCS bowl, they lose money? My bet is on the latter. One of the main reasons BYU/utah broke with the WAC and formed a new conference is because BYU was losing money most of the time when they went to a bowl game....including the cotton bowl, due to the way the revenue sharing was set up in the wac. The MWC gives a larger share to the team that plays in the bowl so that they can cover expenses and most of the time BYU just breaks even on bowl games. Also think of the logistics of not having a regional schedule (right now BYU can play most of its games within an hour of flight time). How expensive do you think it would get if BYU had to play a bunch of eastern teams to fill its schedule? You guys who think that independance would be the mecca for BYU's finances are only thinking of TV revenues (which is only feasable if your idea of getting an exclusive contract with ESPN were to actually happen which I still have major doubts that they would even be interested), when there are so many other issues that would just simply not work with independance. Like I said before, independance would be a death sentence to BYU sports.
M
Mars


2010 INDEPENDENT SCHEDULES:



NAVY (8 home games, 4 away)-

Maryland

Georgia Southern(I-AA)

@Louisiana Tech

@Air Force

@Wake Forest

Southern Methodist

Notre Dame

Duke

@East Carolina

Central Michigan

Arkansas State

Army



NOTRE DAME (9 home games, 3 away)-

Purdue

Michigan

@Michigan State

Stanford

@Boston College

Pittsburgh

Western Michigan

Navy

Tulsa

Utah

Army

@USC



ARMY (7 home games, 5 away)-

@Eastern Michigan

Hawaii

North Texas

@Duke

Temple

@Tulane

@Rutgers

Virginia Military Institute(I-AA)

Air Force

@Kent State

Notre Dame

Navy
L
Lawboy
Having7 home games a year would be sweet. And would cover lots of costs for BYU going Indy.



Notre Dame has 9 home games? wow. Bet they still lose at least 4 this year. 9 home games is a joke. NCAA limit should be 7 in a 12 game schedule. 9 is a total joke.
A
allcoug
Mars wrote:


2010 INDEPENDENT SCHEDULES:



NAVY (8 home games, 4 away)-

Maryland

Georgia Southern(I-AA)

@Louisiana Tech

@Air Force

@Wake Forest

Southern Methodist

Notre Dame

Duke

@East Carolina

Central Michigan

Arkansas State

Army



NOTRE DAME (9 home games, 3 away)-

Purdue

Michigan

@Michigan State

Stanford

@Boston College

Pittsburgh

Western Michigan

Navy

Tulsa

Utah

Army

@USC



ARMY (7 home games, 5 away)-

@Eastern Michigan

Hawaii

North Texas

@Duke

Temple

@Tulane

@Rutgers

Virginia Military Institute(I-AA)

Air Force

@Kent State

Notre Dame

Navy


Thanks, Mars. This is very interesting. I didn't think of the fact that we could get 7 or eight home games as an independent. That would definitely be sweet. I would suspect our schedule would be closer to Notre Dames schedule. I really believe we could continue to get two games with BCS schools every year and at least three of the top MWC teams. Add in Utah State and here's what we could have for a schedule:



@Rutgers

Army

Louisville

@BCS Conference School

San Diego State

@BSU

TCU

Dll School

BCS Conference School

Air Force

Utah State



I'd take this any day over playing in the MWC every year.
A
allcoug
Mingjai wrote:

I disagree with you about scheduling. Why do you think any Big East or SEC team would love to play BYU? I'm positive that Louisville, Rutgers, USF, Cincinnati, or Ole Miss aren't chomping at the bit to play BYU--will it help their recruiting? Not likely. Will it help their national status? Probably not enough to make a difference. If they really want to play BYU, why don't we have them on our future schedule? Because we're an MWC team? Would independence change the perception of BYU?


Money...money...money. I hate to continue to state the obvious but it keeps getting left out of the debate. If we pay them they will come. We are in a very unique situation with:



1. A built in national following (I know, I know...we aren't Notre Dame, but it you think we aren't unique in this area then just try going to an away game and see how many BYU fans show up).



2. Just built, state of the are media facilities.



3. And as an independent we could have 7 or 8 home games. That would put even more dollars in the coffers.
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jonnylingo
what are we playing for though. you have no conference championship to play for each year. that takes out a lot of the excitement. if you don't have killer bowl connections, you lose any real reason to play. if the holiday bowl and the bcs give us great terms, i may change my mind on this but without that going independent, while we may make more money, just doesn't interest me. It seems boring to me. I feel like we will eventually become more and more irrelevant. I just don't like the idea. We would need good bowl tie ins and a great tv deal. otheriwse i think its a mistake.
S
scott715
What effect would more money and more exposure have for us joining the Big12-2? That could be the real plan.
A
allcoug
scott715 wrote:
What effect would more money and more exposure have for us joining the Big12-2? That could be the real plan.


I am not against joining the Big 12. In fact, that seems to be a good option but it may be a 'be careful what you ask for' trap. If Nebraska wanted to get out from under Texas we may find it to be not so desirable to be at the mercy of Texas and Oklahoma. As an independent we call our own shots, make our own money and play for a national championship every year. I agree the ONLY sacrifice is that we don't a have a built in conference championship to play for every year, but I'm willing to give that up. Being MWC champs has lost its luster over the years as we've been forced to play in the LV bowl every year. We all know, and Bronco has stated many times, that we are playing for a national championship and national recognition.



Here's a quote from Bronco when he was first hired:



“I think we’re a flag bearer of the school,” he has said. “I intend to carry that flag up high, not on the ground. If I do my job right, this place will be one of the most dominant programs in the country, as it once was.”



http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1961



We are BYU. We aren't like any other program in the country. We may be one of the few teams that can succeed at independence. It's time to charter new territory and not be afraid to step out of our comfort zone.
F
frdbtr
allcoug wrote:
What effect would more money and more exposure have for us joining the Big12-2? That could be the real plan.


I am not against joining the Big 12. In fact, that seems to be a good option but it may be a 'be careful what you ask for' trap. If Nebraska wanted to get out from under Texas we may find it to be not so desirable to be at the mercy of Texas and Oklahoma. As an independent we call our own shots, make our own money and play for a national championship every year. I agree the ONLY sacrifice is that we don't a have a built in conference championship to play for every year, but I'm willing to give that up. Being MWC champs has lost its luster over the years as we've been forced to play in the LV bowl every year. We all know, and Bronco has stated many times, that we are playing for a national championship and national recognition.



Here's a quote from Bronco when he was first hired:



“I think we’re a flag bearer of the school,” he has said. “I intend to carry that flag up high, not on the ground. If I do my job right, this place will be one of the most dominant programs in the country, as it once was.”



http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1961



We are BYU. We aren't like any other program in the country. We may be one of the few teams that can succeed at independence. It's time to charter new territory and not be afraid to step out of our comfort zone.


How do you figure that simply being an independant makes us part of the BCS? Frankly, I think it would be harder to play for a NC as an independant then it currently is. Notre Dame has a special rule putting them in the BCS if they achieve a certain rank in the top 25 but they are the only ones. No one talks about Navy in the NC race....ever, what makes you think they would talk about BYU in that light. You guys seem to forget that the BCS was created to make sure that a "Mid Major" never won another NC due to BYU's NC in 84, so why would the BCS happily add us to the ND rule just because we left the MWC?
S
scott715
I think they would have to give us the same as the other non-BCS conferences-Be in the top 12. With the upgrade of our SOS our chances should improve.
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