Day 1 QB Battle

byutx wrote:

Mars wrote:




Also, Lark is clearly viewed as 3rd string, and Munns as 4th string right now. They will get an equal chance if they earn it, but that are not currently all tied at the top like was previously suggested.

How are they supposed to earn if they haven't been able to take any snaps? I am hoping that maybe Lark and Munns will get the bulk of the reps on the next day of practice. I think it would be only be fair to give them most of a day to see what they can do.

Completely disagree. The snaps should go to the QB's that perform best in position and skelly drills. What makes you think that Heaps and Nelson didn't outperform them in practice prior to team segments? I think Nelson ends up as the #2 QB and will come in to run some plays every game to take advantage of his athletic ability. Were Heaps to get injured, Larks might be the guy, though. I am interested to see where Larks and Munns are.

Because I haven't seen anything that says anything about them outperforming Lark or Munns in drills or conditioning. If thats the case, then fair enough. All I see is words coming from the coaches mouth and stats that don't reflect it. If its down to Nelson and Heaps then they should just say that, which I am fine with. Until they declare the race down to those two for certain, I would like to see at least Lark get some reps. Maybe it works like if you score on your drive, you get to go again or something like that and Nelson and Heaps both keep scoring. I don't know. I was just excited to see how Lark and Munns compared with in 11 on 11 drills. If Lark and Munns are actually going to be given a chance they need to be given it early in camp, obviously splitting the reps 4 ways isn't going to get any quarterback where he needs to be. That being said I am pleased to see Heaps and Nelson both throwing it so well on Day 1.

fifthqb wrote:
That being said I am pleased to see Heaps and Nelson both throwing it so well on Day 1.

Nelson didn't throw overly well on Day 1. His passer rating was 113. Which is quite poor. Not quite Jordan Wynn vs BYU poor, but still poor nonetheless. Poor enough that a few more repeat performances and the coaches' decision will likely be pretty easy.



Wynn had a rating of 81.96 which was the sixth worst passing performance against BYU the last five years.

Lawboy wrote:
Kitic, really? I could throw passes to the RB in the flat, or the WR in the flat all day too and get that %, and I'm a man, I'm 40! Remember the BC game in Bronco's first year? I swear Beck had an awesome completion percentage that day, and we still got creamed because the dude never took shots down the field. I think we scored 3 pts that day, too.

Lawboy, what is your basis that all Nelson was doing was throwing out to the flat? I don't recall reading anything saying that is what he was doing. He was averaging almost 10 yards a pass which isn't too bad. Perhaps his passes were curls or crossing patterns and the defense didn't allow any YAC. I wasn't there so I don't know, maybe all his passes were swing passes out in the flat, I wish someone who was there could shed some light on this.



Don't get me wrong, I do think Heaps takes more shots down field but I don't see Nelson as some soggy noodle arm who can barely get it past the line of scrimmage.

blue42 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I do think Heaps takes more shots down field but I don't see Nelson as some soggy noodle arm who can barely get it past the line of scrimmage.

Agree. If he were, I don't think he would have had the stats he did in high school.



http://www.byucougars.com/Profile.jsp?ID=7999



When a dude throws for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns in a season, he's throwing something besides slants, curls, and checkdowns to the backs, at least some of the time.

redneckjedi wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I do think Heaps takes more shots down field but I don't see Nelson as some soggy noodle arm who can barely get it past the line of scrimmage.

Agree. If he were, I don't think he would have had the stats he did in high school.



http://www.byucougars.com/Profile.jsp?ID=7999



When a dude throws for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns in a season, he's throwing something besides slants, curls, and checkdowns to the backs, at least some of the time.

3a football. You aren't really passing against the elite - playing the "Beatdiggers" and the Delta Rabbits... Let's keep in mind that Utah State, a torrid program, was his biggest offer, and he didn't get offered from BYU or Utah. If he was a pure passing phenom, BYU would've come knocking. But they are great numbers. I'm more interested in what he can do now. I hope it is enough if he starts.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

blue42 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I do think Heaps takes more shots down field but I don't see Nelson as some soggy noodle arm who can barely get it past the line of scrimmage.

Agree. If he were, I don't think he would have had the stats he did in high school.



http://www.byucougars.com/Profile.jsp?ID=7999



When a dude throws for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns in a season, he's throwing something besides slants, curls, and checkdowns to the backs, at least some of the time.

3a football. You aren't really passing against the elite - playing the "Beatdiggers" and the Delta Rabbits... Let's keep in mind that Utah State, a torrid program, was his biggest offer, and he didn't get offered from BYU or Utah. If he was a pure passing phenom, BYU would've come knocking. But they are great numbers. I'm more interested in what he can do now. I hope it is enough if he starts.

BYU would have come knocking if they hadn't already received a commitment from James Lark.



Yep, both QB's HS numbers don't mean much now. It's all about what they do from here on out. Practice just started, so it'll be interesting to see how/if Riley responded after a sub-par outing on Sat.

blue42 wrote:

Kitic, really? I could throw passes to the RB in the flat, or the WR in the flat all day too and get that %, and I'm a man, I'm 40! Remember the BC game in Bronco's first year? I swear Beck had an awesome completion percentage that day, and we still got creamed because the dude never took shots down the field. I think we scored 3 pts that day, too.

Lawboy, what is your basis that all Nelson was doing was throwing out to the flat? I don't recall reading anything saying that is what he was doing. He was averaging almost 10 yards a pass which isn't too bad. Perhaps his passes were curls or crossing patterns and the defense didn't allow any YAC. I wasn't there so I don't know, maybe all his passes were swing passes out in the flat, I wish someone who was there could shed some light on this.



Don't get me wrong, I do think Heaps takes more shots down field but I don't see Nelson as some soggy noodle arm who can barely get it past the line of scrimmage.

Fair or not, I am basing it off of KSL news clips. Every time they show Riley, he is either throwing a quick WR screen, to the RB in the flat, or pulling it down and running. The clips are backing up the stereotypes. And so did his 2009 passing while on the field. He ran it 2x more than passed it.

Are we going to hear much about the results after today's practice given that it is not open to the public? Do many reporters still get in to watch and comment?



Also, we cannot place too much emphasis on the statistical results of each daily performance - coaches can see and understand what the stats don't tell (i.e. a successful pass being the result of a poor throw and a great receiver adjustment versus an unsuccessful pass being the result of a great throw and poor execution by the receiver).

dsmith1212 wrote:
Are we going to hear much about the results after today's practice given that it is not open to the public? Do many reporters still get in to watch and comment?



Also, we cannot place too much emphasis on the statistical results of each daily performance - coaches can see and understand what the stats don't tell (i.e. a successful pass being the result of a poor throw and a great receiver adjustment versus an unsuccessful pass being the result of a great throw and poor execution by the receiver).

Yes, reporters can still and will attend. I imagine we'll continue to get daily reports. In addition to re-reporting the daily stats given, I'll post the cumulative stats as well.



One other opinion of the battle I want to state:

- If the coaches do name Riley the starter, I hope they publicly announce the plans to red-shirt Jake. Because if they're just going to switch to Jake after five or six games, then I'm in favor of starting Jake from the first game.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

blue42 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I do think Heaps takes more shots down field but I don't see Nelson as some soggy noodle arm who can barely get it past the line of scrimmage.

Agree. If he were, I don't think he would have had the stats he did in high school.



http://www.byucougars.com/Profile.jsp?ID=7999



When a dude throws for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns in a season, he's throwing something besides slants, curls, and checkdowns to the backs, at least some of the time.

3a football. You aren't really passing against the elite - playing the "Beatdiggers" and the Delta Rabbits... Let's keep in mind that Utah State, a torrid program, was his biggest offer, and he didn't get offered from BYU or Utah. If he was a pure passing phenom, BYU would've come knocking. But they are great numbers. I'm more interested in what he can do now. I hope it is enough if he starts.

It could be little league ball against 8-year-olds, you still have to chuck the ball and have it get to the receiver in a place where he can catch it. We all know he doesn't have a cannon. But he at least put the ball on target enough for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns. Utah 3A high school ball is nowhere near what even 5A ball is, let alone D1A college ball. However, the fundamentals for a QB are the same at every level: catch the snap, don't get sacked, find the open guy, get him the ball. You can't just write off somebody's skills simply by the level of competition they faced. Kurt Warner has a Super Bowl ring that says as much.



All I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely that a guy that passes for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns is a noodle-armed choir boy. He may not have a cannon, but those stats have to come from somewhere.

Both QBs have had good and bad moments. I worry that it seems so black and white for some of you. Let's watch and enjoy and accept the fact that they might actually both be pretty good quarterbacks.



My source with some inside info indicates that some veterans are growing a little weary of hot shot attitudes with some of the highly touted newbues including Heaps and look more to Nelson as a leader. That is just one athletes opinion recently stated as to why he thinks Nelson will start.



I would hope that they both develop over the next two weeks and a clear winner emerges. If it is still close, I hope it is because they are both so good - Bib



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redneckjedi wrote:

redneckjedi wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I do think Heaps takes more shots down field but I don't see Nelson as some soggy noodle arm who can barely get it past the line of scrimmage.

Agree. If he were, I don't think he would have had the stats he did in high school.



http://www.byucougars.com/Profile.jsp?ID=7999



When a dude throws for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns in a season, he's throwing something besides slants, curls, and checkdowns to the backs, at least some of the time.

3a football. You aren't really passing against the elite - playing the "Beatdiggers" and the Delta Rabbits... Let's keep in mind that Utah State, a torrid program, was his biggest offer, and he didn't get offered from BYU or Utah. If he was a pure passing phenom, BYU would've come knocking. But they are great numbers. I'm more interested in what he can do now. I hope it is enough if he starts.

It could be little league ball against 8-year-olds, you still have to chuck the ball and have it get to the receiver in a place where he can catch it. We all know he doesn't have a cannon. But he at least put the ball on target enough for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns. Utah 3A high school ball is nowhere near what even 5A ball is, let alone D1A college ball. However, the fundamentals for a QB are the same at every level: catch the snap, don't get sacked, find the open guy, get him the ball. You can't just write off somebody's skills simply by the level of competition they faced. Kurt Warner has a Super Bowl ring that says as much.



All I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely that a guy that passes for 4000 yards and 53 touchdowns is a noodle-armed choir boy. He may not have a cannon, but those stats have to come from somewhere.

Perhaps he threw his arm out? :)



Look, I couldn't give a rat's adam's apple about stats almost 10 years ago. All you have to do is look at two videos (NOT ONE...) of him throwing the ball, and he just doesn't have an arm. Have you actually watched him throw, for like an hour? He may be completing easy passes, but there will come a day very soon, when the passes don't come so easy. What then? My guess is he takes 2 seconds looking at his receivers, and does his best Forest Gump impression. He has happy feet, like no other. He has happy feet like Junior year John Beck had happy feet, and nothing else that John had (strong arm, gunsling windup, throwing across his body, reading defenses.) I hope he pans out. I don't think he will. I'm done with this debate, give it another week and we'll see where we are.