QB Battle Day 5

The "almost" play of the day was a bit of a jaw-dropper. Heaps was flushed out to his left and threw a pass about 50-60 yards in the air, intended for Rhen Brown. Brown caught up to the ball, laid out, got both hands on it, but could not complete what would have been a spectacular throw-and-catch. Watching an on-the-run right-hander get that much on what ended up as a nearly perfectly-thrown ball was impressive. Had the catch been made, it would have stood--instead, the play was brought back on a defensive offsides.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=498&sid=11968643



That is impressive for a Freshman.



I am reserving judgement on both players until I actually get to see them in person. I want to see how good the completions are and how bad the incompletions are. You can look at stats all day but they will only give you limited information.

Lawboy wrote:
I think that is the key thing. I have intentionally prevented myself from getting emotionally tied to one guy or the other, but instead am emotionally tied to BYU. I want BYU to win and want the players on the field to succeed so BYU succeeds. I know Heaps is the future of BYU at QB, but I have no idea if the future begins Sept 4 v. UW, and really do not care. Just want to beat UW, beat AFA and head to Florida at 2-0. That means that both QB's need to play well, because I expct both to play in at least the first 3-4 games this year, if not all year long together.

The ways things are going at this point suggests that you are probably right. i keep thinking one will pull away but they just don't. i am starting to think we will go into the uw game with the status quo but even more complicated as lark or munns might start to make noise.

jonnylingo wrote:
That is because nelson has his 'own' packages that cater to his strengths. He is a good passser from short distances but mid to long bombs are a weakness for him whereas Heaps is probably one of the best in the league already at such a young age. i am sue that explains why riley has been a more efficient passer as well.

I don't think we say how good Jake is yet, we've seen too much blue zone work thus far. But I am willing to say that Jake should and likely be better with the deep ball, simply because he does throw a much more catchable ball, is more consistent in the tightness of his throws. I think next week when the offense hopefully moves away from as much blue zone work, Jake should be able show off his deep ball more. Efficiency is still efficiency in my book. I think this shows that Riley is being more efficient with his package than Jake is with his.

jonnylingo wrote:
look, its even. 100 percent even. with two different strengths they are both moving the ball and doing it quite well.

Agreed.

jonnylingo wrote:
Would you agree that if we have a good running game it would benefit the team more to have an awesome mid to long bomb passer or one that struggles and is more inconsistent with those passes but is great at short passes and running? It just made sense to me. Jake is maybe the best long passer to come out of high school last year and maybe one of the in college football already. All else equal, if our running game is good, having jake behind center seems more beneficial than riley.

No. I think a good running game would benefit both QBs equally. I don't think we'll be going down field all that often. We didn't do it all the time with Beck and he had a cannon. The offense is chock-full of dinks and dunks.

jonnylingo wrote:
that said riley has more experiences reading defenses. The benefit jake's arm brings may not equal that experience that nelson has. I don't know. That is why I am just throwing it out there. Probably useless to even talk about it. but that is what we do on these boards. we waste time talking about things that don't matter.

Yeah, we waste WAY too much time here.

frdbtr wrote:
The bottom line for me is this; if Heaps can manage the offense, protect the ball, read defenses and make plays with his arm when they are needed, he should start. My fear is that since he is a freshman and hasn't played in the college game or seen the speed of college defenses that he will struggle with what I have stated above and lose confidence in his abilities. It is up to the coaches to decide if he is capable of doing what I stated above. I am not confident that Nelson can do it either but I would much rather see an upper classman lose confidence then the freshman Phenom that in a couple of years will be much further ahead of where Riley is right now. I just don't want to see him get thrown to the wolves and then have to mend his confidence.

Good point. This is what kept me on the fence through the summer. But the fact that he came in a played well against byu's defense right away kind of changed my mind. It suggests he is ready enough. I think the point italics made suports that as well, the fact that he is even with the likes of nelson with his talent and two years under his belt. So that worry has been allayed somewhat for me.

jonnylingo wrote:
Kitc,



Don't get so emotional. I was making a rational point. Whether its valid or not is up for debate. Your sarcastic and emotionally charged responses suggest that it is you that is emotionally invested in who starts not me. While I do acknowledge that it is my opinion that Heaps should start for the reasons I have stated, I am still reasonable to acknowledge that things are even.

Seriously? Kitic has been probably the most level-headed and objective poster on this subject of anyone - I don't know where you're getting this. The only thing that seemed to get him to be a little sarcastic is the constant implication by everyone pushing for Heaps that Nelson is, in the words of Groundskeeper Willie, a "noodle-armed choir boy" because of his stats in half a season at Utah State, which isn't true or supported by the little objective data we have. Other than that, he's a rock of objectivity, and I find your comment ridiculous.

jonnylingo wrote:

The bottom line for me is this; if Heaps can manage the offense, protect the ball, read defenses and make plays with his arm when they are needed, he should start. My fear is that since he is a freshman and hasn't played in the college game or seen the speed of college defenses that he will struggle with what I have stated above and lose confidence in his abilities. It is up to the coaches to decide if he is capable of doing what I stated above. I am not confident that Nelson can do it either but I would much rather see an upper classman lose confidence then the freshman Phenom that in a couple of years will be much further ahead of where Riley is right now. I just don't want to see him get thrown to the wolves and then have to mend his confidence.

Good point. This is what kept me on the fence through the summer. But the fact that he came in a played well against byu's defense right away kind of changed my mind. It suggests he is ready enough. I think the point italics made suports that as well, the fact that he is even with the likes of nelson with his talent and two years under his belt. So that worry has been allayed somewhat for me.

I agree to a point that he has done well against our defense. He also wears a green jersey and has no fear of being tattoed by Pendleton right now (or an equivelent from TCU).

redneckjedi wrote:

Kitc,



Don't get so emotional. I was making a rational point. Whether its valid or not is up for debate. Your sarcastic and emotionally charged responses suggest that it is you that is emotionally invested in who starts not me. While I do acknowledge that it is my opinion that Heaps should start for the reasons I have stated, I am still reasonable to acknowledge that things are even.

Seriously? Kitic has been probably the most level-headed and objective poster on this subject of anyone - I don't know where you're getting this. The only thing that seemed to get him to be a little sarcastic is the constant implication by everyone pushing for Heaps that Nelson is, in the words of Groundskeeper Willie, a "noodle-armed choir boy" because of his stats in half a season at Utah State, which isn't true or supported by the little objective data we have. Other than that, he's a rock of objectivity, and I find your comment ridiculous.

Just read the post redneck. It is obvious he was being emotional. It was one big sarcastic remark followed by "Face it, the battle is closer than you think and want it to be." Those are fighting words, not rational talk words.



We worked things out. we pretty much agree that it is even but disagree on who should start given this fact.

Yeah, I'll admit my response was a bit emotional. But I think by and large we here at CC have done an excellent job of keeping the discussions civil and non-personal.

kitic77 wrote:
Yeah, I'll admit my response was a bit emotional. But I think by and large we here at CC have done an excellent job of keeping the discussions civil and non-personal.

Word. I very much agree. thats what makes this place great.

CannonCougar85 wrote:

The "almost" play of the day was a bit of a jaw-dropper. Heaps was flushed out to his left and threw a pass about 50-60 yards in the air, intended for Rhen Brown. Brown caught up to the ball, laid out, got both hands on it, but could not complete what would have been a spectacular throw-and-catch. Watching an on-the-run right-hander get that much on what ended up as a nearly perfectly-thrown ball was impressive. Had the catch been made, it would have stood--instead, the play was brought back on a defensive offsides.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=498&sid=11968643



That is impressive for a Freshman.



I am reserving judgement on both players until I actually get to see them in person. I want to see how good the completions are and how bad the incompletions are. You can look at stats all day but they will only give you limited information.

It was just a lucky thow. ;)

kitic77 wrote:
He didn't throw an INT, Jake did.

Riley did THROW an int. Austen Jorgensen just didn't CATCH said int.

WACoug wrote:

He didn't throw an INT, Jake did.

Riley did THROW an int. Austen Jorgensen just didn't CATCH said int.

I'm not up to date on all the fancy football lingo mumbo jumbo, but if no one catches it, I don't think you can count it as a pick, just like if your receiver doesn't catch the ball in the endzone, you can't count it as a touchdown...

Yeah, I'm not impressed by "almost great throws" either. I remember against Boise when Beck threw the ball like 70 yards. My cousin was jumping up and down saying, did you see that throw?! Which one? The one that just fell incomplete?



I'm very excited for tomorrow. I'll get just my second time to see Jake throw in person. I loved the touch he puts on the ball in spring and on YouTube. I can't wait to be wowed again.



To reiterate my stance on Jake. I can't wait for his future. I think he has tremendous upside. I just hope we can be patient and give him extra year to develop.

kitic77 wrote:
Yeah, I'm not impressed by "almost great throws" either. I remember against Boise when Beck threw the ball like 70 yards. My cousin was jumping up and down saying, did you see that throw?! Which one? The one that just fell incomplete?

Very true. I think the point being made though as far as qb evaluation goes is that he threw one that would have been a pick but go lucky. This is just like heaps who has had some drives stall because receivers dropped balls. you just have to take those facts into account if you are evaluating the qbs.



a pick is a pick and a catch is a catch, but from a perspective of evaluation or judging who is the better qb, you have to take those facts which are being mocked into account.



enough already. I am trying to get my work done so that I can squeeze in some time to see a practice tomorrow.

Yeah, it does seem the there have been quite a few drops so far in camp. And many have come with Heaps, which does him no favors.



Although, I thought he threw such great, catchable balls? ;) :P 8)

kitic77 wrote:
Yeah, it does seem the there have been quite a few drops so far in camp. And many have come with Heaps, which does him no favors.



Although, I thought he threw such great, catchable balls? ;) :P 8)

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that a lot of the reporters are also secretly (or not so secretly) hoping that Heaps wins the battle and we have this stellar 4-year starter etc. so they slant things that way, reporting on every dropped ball that is thrown by him.

Or maybe the receivers just aren't used to catching passes from a receiver with a real arm? He's just throwing too hard and too accurately for the balls to be caught! ;)

I agree nelson's stats win the day, but with 4 total completions I would not want either one starting against UW tomorrow. Luckily we have a few weeks to get settled. 5 days is not enough to start worrying that someone hasn't emerged as the obvious starter. I recall a lot of off days by veterans early on in fall camps prior to this so I'm not yet alarmed.



As far as deeming Nelson winner of the day, my only reservation is his 17 total passing yards. Can anyone be a winner with that stat?



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BYULV wrote:
I agree nelson's stats win the day, but with 4 total completions I would not want either one starting against UW tomorrow. Luckily we have a few weeks to get settled. 5 days is not enough to start worrying that someone hasn't emerged as the obvious starter. I recall a lot of off days by veterans early on in fall camps prior to this so I'm not yet alarmed.



As far as deeming Nelson winner of the day, my only reservation is his 17 total passing yards. Can anyone be a winner with that stat?



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

A large part of that is because they are designing completely different plays for him. The plays they are running are not the same. They each have completely different packages. Nelson will never has as many passing yards as heaps will and heaps will never have as many running yards as nelson.



jdrew on teh radio said today from what he observed they are running pretty much completely different offenses when each quarterback is in there. he also said that nelson's throws come up short a lot and that heaps is very clearly the better passer.



i know, i know, drew has conspired with other fellow reporters to favor heaps because they know that bronco will make the decision based on what they say in their reports. he also is stupid. :P but i have to put some weight in his comments given he is actually watching practice each day.



he said he thinks heaps gets the nod but is not convinced because when he hears and watches bronco he seems to think he likes nelson as a starter.

Schmoe wrote:

Yeah, it does seem the there have been quite a few drops so far in camp. And many have come with Heaps, which does him no favors.



Although, I thought he threw such great, catchable balls? ;) :P 8)

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that a lot of the reporters are also secretly (or not so secretly) hoping that Heaps wins the battle and we have this stellar 4-year starter etc. so they slant things that way, reporting on every dropped ball that is thrown by him.

Agreed. Wrubell is a total Heaps homer.



Did anyone hear Jay Drew's interview on 1280? If not, it's a good listen. One thing he said that I found interesting was when Drew was talking about the QB battle. It made me think about something I said a few days/weeks ago.



In that I really think the coaches want to red-shirt Jake. I think they really want to work with him for a year and a half (since he was here in the spring) without the pressure of winning now. I think they're looking for reasons to go with Nelson. If I can project my opinion onto the coaching staff, I think they think Jake Heaps in 2010-2013 could be even better in 2011-2014 if they can red-shirt him.



I think they know Jake is the better QB, but that he may not give any more chance to win games than what they can win with Riley. So they want to be patient and let him develop. The problem is that Riley isn't play well enough to do that and Jake is playing too well to do it either.