CougarCorner
Sign in
Archived Topic

At what point?

by snoscythe · 9/6/2010

Sponsored Advertisementad content
B
Brayden Green
snoscythe wrote:
I think Riley loses that game last night without a change of pace, and a breather here and there.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. The kid goes out and has a PER of 168 and throws for two TDs with the same number of series against the same defense as Heaps, but people still want to sell him short and say he couldn't have won the game.



Yeah, we probably couldn't have won without Heaps talking half of the possessions with a 106 PER. That was the game changer. :roll:



You want to dissect it throw by throw to find his errors, but the fact of the matter is that he was the most effective QB on the field Saturday. Heaps was a nice change of pace, yes, but anyone with an open mind would admit that Nelson was more effective. I don't see how you can honestly argue that if Heaps had rode the bench, Nelson would have lost us the game. Honestly.




Jake loses the game if it is just Jake, too. They complemented each other. But just keep reading what you want, and seeing things the way you want. Clearly it's working for you. Either both qb's are lying, or they clearly are in it together right now. I admit that Nelson was more effective too. I didn't say that he would have lost the game for sure, it was a close game, and Jake did more to help, than hurt in that game- when you factor in all of the shots Riley didn't have to take on the run, the time he spendt gathering himself etc. You can't make the case that without Jake Riley wins the game alone, because there is no guarantee of that when adjustments are made, and they actually MAKE Riley throw. Watch Air Force next week, and see how easy it is to plan against a running qb. And Riley is a running qb that can also throw. Not a throwing qb. Anyone that watches the game and isn't directly related to him can see that. Watch the game back, and watch his throws against a not very good Washington defense. He should have had one picked it was a terribly thrown ball that you can't make any excuses for, and a lot of his throws could have gone for more yardage if they were thrown like most qb's would have gotten them in there. You all seem to think that it is enough that the balls GET there. Screw timing, and giving your recievers a chance to get some yards, or square up to the defender and actually make a play. No, it is better that the ball wobbles in the air and comes down, just so long as it gets there.



We won, I don't care about this stupid debate anymore. Do you want to go on the line and say that Riley is a better quarterback than Jake, Sno? That he is the better passer? Go ahead. Dig your own grave. i am tired of speaking to deaf ears.
B
Brayden Green
kitic77 wrote:
You WANT to throw the deep out early, primarily because it is such a long throw.
[/quote]



I wasn't referring to an out. I was referring to a curl/hook. You throw the hook, when, and only when the receiver has sold a streak or slant, and curled inside. Riley lofted his throw, and at the same time, placed it away not from the receiver and down. Where exactly only the receiver could catch it, and subsequently fall on the ground and not be able to fight for an extra 2 yards for the first down, which the defender was allowing. I am sure he meant to do that...



Come on guys, who are we kidding? Nelson can't make all the throws asked of him, if he could he would be a pocket passer and not a run threat. Heaps didn't make all the throws he should have either. Neither wins without the other on saturday. All this Heaps hate is plain stupid, and irrational. If they can live together in the locker room, we should be able to do it out here.
B
Brayden Green
hawkwing wrote:

I disagree completely. Riley can make EVERY throw required of a BYU QB. I saw it during practice and I saw it during the game. Riley can easily throw a 20-30 yard pass in the air. Can he throw a 60? No. But that isn't a BYU QB pass either, that's a hail mary.


There is a difference between throwing the ball 20-30 yards in the air, and "making the throw" . It has to do with timing, placement, loft on the ball, arm mechanics, feet placement, and a myriad of other things. If you are referring that Riely can "get the ball there" than yes, he can get it there, but it is the difference between a catch-collision, and a few yards to a broken tackle TD on a break and a hook. Do me a favor and watch the game back. Watch where the D-backs are at, when he starts the throw, and where they are when the ball actually comes down (good luck with the camera crew, by the way). Do that and see if it helps you. The defenders go from being off the ball, to being right there to break up, or immediately tackle. We might as well be playing two hand touch. If it was a matter of "just getting the ball there," the qb would be the easiest position of the field.
C
craigoscarson
Where and how to throw the ball can be coached up and will improve with both players (some of those techniques are already quite mature with Heaps). How fast the ball gets there isn't something you can coach; though an experienced Qb learns how to time their passes to accomodate their arm strength. If arm strength wasn't a major component of a great QB, Ty Detmer would be in the NFL hall of fame and maybe he would have thrown a few less interceptions in his college career.



Riley brings a lot to the table and certainly isn't gimped too much in running this offense, but he has limitations.



Jakes only real limitations are his inexperience and physical immaturity; (and legs I suppose; since Riley certainly brings that to the table. ) I would have bet that if Jake threw for half the snaps last week that he would have thrown at least one interception simply due to experience; but it didnt' happen. (It makes me wonder if Bronco told those guys that turnovers would be the major deciding factor in whether or not those boys continue to get snaps)



Both benefit from playing. Riley has played and started several college football games and got an entire year of experience backing up Max. Jake comes in cold turkey experience-wise, and puts on a pretty darn good performance as a true freshman playing against a well respected program (that wasn't northwestern state out there)



In baseball terms, Riley is Sandy Koufax and Jake is Bob Gibson. Koufax had an amazing career, but they lowered the mound because of how dominant Bob Gibson was. One Jake figures out the game at this level, teams are going to have to figure out how to lower the mound. I wanted to keep Jake in the minors for another year but Bronco called him up. So like Bib just said,


If they can live together in the locker room, we should be able to do it out here.
S
snoscythe
BlueIsBetter wrote:
Do you want to go on the line and say that Riley is a better quarterback than Jake, Sno? That he is the better passer? Go ahead. Dig your own grave. i am tired of speaking to deaf ears.


Quarterback? At this point, yes. Does Jake have the potential to be better in a couple of years? Yes. Passer? Well, Heaps might be more accurate and throw harder, but he doesn't know the playbook yet (see his throws to absolutely nobody) and he is putting too much mustard on it. If you want a passer, Heaps is your guy, but Saturday all of that passing ability translated into a PER rating 60+ points below the non-passer. I want a guy who's going to get us wins, and based off of Saturday night, there is a clear choice for a winner.
Sponsored Advertisementad content
B
Brayden Green
snoscythe wrote:
Do you want to go on the line and say that Riley is a better quarterback than Jake, Sno? That he is the better passer? Go ahead. Dig your own grave. i am tired of speaking to deaf ears.


Quarterback? At this point, yes. Does Jake have the potential to be better in a couple of years? Yes. Passer? Well, Heaps might be more accurate and throw harder, but he doesn't know the playbook yet (see his throws to absolutely nobody) and he is putting too much mustard on it. If you want a passer, Heaps is your guy, but Saturday all of that passing ability translated into a PER rating 60 points below the non-passer. I want a guy who's going to get us wins, and based off of Saturday night, there is a clear choice for a winner.


I agree that he doesn't know the entire playbook yet. Out of the 4 drops, only one had too much mustard on it. Quite a few of Rileys throws didn't have enough mustard on them, so it goes both ways.



Here is your major flaw Sno, we don't need to pick one or the other. We have them both. A win with Riley under the helm is a win for the cougars, and a win for Jake is a win for the cougars. If something is good for Jake it is good for the cougars. I never understood all of this hate for a guy in blue. I have my doubts about Riley, but don't hate him, and as long as he has a big Y on his helmet I will support him. Why all this Pro Riley, anti Jake stuff from you ever since the start of the summer? I really truly think that you are related to Nelson. That would explain a lot. If you aren't I just don't get it. Are you going to be this way next year when the qb battle ensues again? 5 games into the season if/when Jake has surpassed Riley and settled down? I just don't get it. It is plain to me that I am not talking with someone looking at things rationally.
C
craigoscarson
snoscythe wrote:
Do you want to go on the line and say that Riley is a better quarterback than Jake, Sno? That he is the better passer? Go ahead. Dig your own grave. i am tired of speaking to deaf ears.


Quarterback? At this point, yes. Does Jake have the potential to be better in a couple of years? Yes. Passer? Well, Heaps might be more accurate and throw harder, but he doesn't know the playbook yet (see his throws to absolutely nobody) and he is putting too much mustard on it. If you want a passer, Heaps is your guy, but Saturday all of that passing ability translated into a PER rating 60+ points below the non-passer. I want a guy who's going to get us wins, and based off of Saturday night, there is a clear choice for a winner.


So by the same rationale, if Heaps puts on better perfomances than Riley in the future based on the PER; then you're betting on a different horse? It was one game.



I suppose that Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman never should have gotten the job their rookie seasons, I mean they won a total of 3 games combined and manning threw for a lead leading 28 interceptions.



Heaps will improve week to week as any freshman given the opportunity should.



If Bronco is waiting for someone to emerge as the #1, my money is on Heaps with Riley as the insurance policy not the other way around. My gut tells me that both will play and that cougarcorner is going to be intolerable at times with the monday morning quarterback experts.
C
Cougs_Rule
ya, but wait for the loss. then the real boo-birds and mmqb's will be out in full force. family will turn against family...fans against coaches....The very foundation of CC might be challenged forever.
S
snoscythe
BlueIsBetter wrote:
BlueIsBetter wrote:
Do you want to go on the line and say that Riley is a better quarterback than Jake, Sno? That he is the better passer? Go ahead. Dig your own grave. i am tired of speaking to deaf ears.


Quarterback? At this point, yes. Does Jake have the potential to be better in a couple of years? Yes. Passer? Well, Heaps might be more accurate and throw harder, but he doesn't know the playbook yet (see his throws to absolutely nobody) and he is putting too much mustard on it. If you want a passer, Heaps is your guy, but Saturday all of that passing ability translated into a PER rating 60 points below the non-passer. I want a guy who's going to get us wins, and based off of Saturday night, there is a clear choice for a winner.


I agree that he doesn't know the entire playbook yet. Out of the 4 drops, only one had too much mustard on it. Quite a few of Rileys throws didn't have enough mustard on them, so it goes both ways.



Here is your major flaw Sno, we don't need to pick one or the other. We have them both. A win with Riley under the helm is a win for the cougars, and a win for Jake is a win for the cougars. If something is good for Jake it is good for the cougars. I never understood all of this hate for a guy in blue. I have my doubts about Riley, but don't hate him, and as long as he has a big Y on his helmet I will support him. Why all this Pro Riley, anti Jake stuff from you ever since the start of the summer? I really truly think that you are related to Nelson. That would explain a lot. If you aren't I just don't get it. Are you going to be this way next year when the qb battle ensues again? 5 games into the season if/when Jake has surpassed Riley and settled down?.


Where have I shown hate for Heaps? Where have I posted anything nearly as disparaging as your constant nit-picking of Nelson? You say "He should have had one picked it was a terribly thrown ball that you can't make any excuses for," but you somehow give Heaps a pass for his first pass that hit two UW defenders in the hands. Then you say "Screw timing, and giving your recievers a chance to get some yards, or square up to the defender and actually make a play. No, it is better that the ball wobbles in the air and comes down, just so long as it gets there." Did you watch the game? Which QB had the higher completion percentage? Who threw for more ypc? Who threw for more touchdowns? In every measurable and intangible way to evaluate performance, Nelson wins in every metric except for velocity and pretty spirals. Heaps is our QB of the future, but your are deluding yourself to think Nelson wasn't the best QB on the field Saturday.



When Heaps surpasses Nelson, I'll admit it. All I's asking is for people like you who have been ripping on Nelson to admit that the kid is pretty dang good. Instead, we get more of the same---"he'll be exposed at X time." You've been saying it since January, and every time X time rolls around and he performs well, you just pick another X time and say he just got lucky this time and come up for excuses for his good performance and point out where the opponent should have stopped him but he didn't. I get accused of being unfaithful to a guy in Blue because I think Heaps' time isn't here yet? Where was your loyalty to #13 in Spring and Fall camp? You're honestly going to pull the loyalty card on me now after your online rants against Nelson?



You keep saying I must be a Nelson family member because I stand up to defend the guy. I said this clear back in March when I announced I would be taking the Nelson/Lark side of the debate when I noticed people were throwing them to the dogs:


I find the way BYU fans treat the players who have been in the system to be a little insulting frankly. We recruit them, land them, sing their praises, and then a year or two later we recruit, land, and sign another kid and suddenly the players we were excited for 12 months ago are second-hand citizens who can't cut it and are lucky to be enrolled at BYU.


And now, even after the kid leads us to win our opener, you persist in throwing him under the bus and citing all of the reasons why he should have failed. And then you accuse me of "hate for a guy in blue." You can't be serious. Saying Heaps should wait a year is not saying he can't cut it, that he isn't D-I material, that he shouldn't be on scholarship, or that he's wasting a roster spot. But somehow, saying "wait a year" is hating the guy, but those other things are somehow to be construed as supporting the guys with big Y's on their helmets. Give me a break.
G
Guest
craigoscarson wrote:
BlueIsBetter wrote:
I was and still am a Nelson doubter to a certain extent. Not at his ability to move the ball, not at his ability to run. I disagree with everyone that he can make every throw that we need him to. He cannot make the deep ball throw, and probably won't be asked to. That third and long (to Hoffman, I think) that he had to dive for is very telling. If that ball is well thrown, he can stretch out and get two extra yards, as the defender was playing off a few yards and he ran a quick stop route. But he had to put air under it, and wasn't on target. I am not turning this into a Jake vs. Riley thing either, I am just saying that anyone that thinks he can make all the throws is kidding himself. He can't, plain and simple. There are a few more examples, the loft he needed to put on a wr screen, other throws. Go back and watch ALL of his throws, sure he makes good throws, but there are quite a few floaters and innaccuracy that other defenses will take advantage of. Let's face it, this isn't even the 4th best defense we will face this year. And for SURE not the fastest defense.


I disagree completely. Riley can make EVERY throw required of a BYU QB. I saw it during practice and I saw it during the game. Riley can easily throw a 20-30 yard pass in the air. Can he throw a 60? No. But that isn't a BYU QB pass either, that's a hail mary.


You certainly have seen a lot more of Riley than I have (lucky dog) but there's a reason that college coaches are raving about what they see from Heaps (calhoun said he's a slam dunk 1st round pick and calhoun has NFL history) Heaps has tremendous footwork vision and the arm to zip a ball where it needs to be. He just needs to be coached up.


Don't misunderstand me, and my praise of Nelson. I have posted on other threads multiple times after this game how well I thought Heaps did and how poised he was for a true freshman in his first game. The kid is amazing and he is the future. I just think it is hilarious that there are still people here trying to claim that Nelson can't make all the throws required of a BYU QB. Will they have the same mustard as a Heaps pass? Absolutely not! Will they have the same accuracy? Probably not. Will we see some wounded ducks? Probably, but review all the days of Ty Detmer. We won most games on the back of wounded ducks.
Sponsored Advertisementad content
I
Italics
I'm not seeing any Riley bashing here, nor am I seeing anyone say that Nelson didn't play better than Heaps on Saturday. Stating his limitations is doing just that: stating his limitations. I think some people here need a football IQ test performed on them.
B
Brayden Green
snoscythe wrote:



Where have I shown hate for Heaps? Where have I posted anything nearly as disparaging as your constant nit-picking of Nelson?


I don't know if I can term it hate. Disdain maybe. Any of these posts work... Within a week of him commiting to BYU you were on here:


snoscythe wrote:
“Yeah, I just happened to lump him in with the only other 5* boy wonder QB prospects BYU has ever landed…

…As for the other #1 QBs over the last few years, they all came out with raw scores much better than Heaps--and they were 5* talent across the board. Not all of the ranking services agree that Heaps is 5*, much less the #1 QB….

…Heaps' rating actually would have had him the #8-#10 quarterback prospect had he come out a year sooner. A better comparison would be the likes of AJ McCarron, Tom Savage, or Andrew Maxwell....you know, guys who had the same raw scores as Heaps, not "the other #1 QBs over the last few years" and ignore the fact that Heaps is only #1 because he came out in a weak class…. “



http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3275&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Or maybe this one:


snoscythe wrote:
“So why do you want to look at Barkley and Pryor, when Heaps' talent evaluation indicates he is more likely a Pat Devlin, Robert Marve, Star Jackson, or Andrew Maxwell....how well did those guys do their freshman seasons? I could care less that Heaps was #1 in the country when that was only because he came out in a weak class. The same recruiting services you are putting all of your stock in bear out the truth of that.



Heaps has great potential, but we are putting the cart ahead of the horse in naming him the Golden Boy of the future… Yes, Heaps won all sorts of awards playing 7-on-7 ball in the Summer.....against the same weak competition that got him his #1 ranking. Take a harder look at the recruiting stats, scores, and rankings, and show me where I'm wrong. Show me where Heaps is anywhere comparable to the #1 QBs the past five years when you look at the raw scores the services give…

Am I saying Heaps sucks? Heck no. Even on a raw score, he is one of the top prospects BYU has brought into QB camp with Jimmy Mac, Ben Olson, and Paul Shoemaker. Unfortunately, only one of those panned out, and that was the one that was brought along slowly and learned from the bench. What I think is that most of the fans have been star-struck by the #1 ranking and his 7-on-7 work and are willing overlook the fact that the offense has been more productive with Nelson under center with 22 men on the field than Heaps in the Spring. “


Yeah, not a pro-riley anti Heaps agenda here… :roll: Multiple references to Shoemaker, Olson, others since day one. How’s that Shoemaker comparison working out for you now?



There are other things here and there too, little jabs of sorts. I don't have time nor do I care to post them all. While everyone was excited (for good reason!) that Jake was coming here you were busy fighting everyone.


snoscythe wrote:
I'm not saying Heaps is a horrible leader, but I do question his leadership after the attitude he arrived at camp with. Leaders don't show up late to voluntary workouts and pick and choose what they will do.

http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3299&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Especially not when they are sick :sick: Leaders always show up barfing on other people.



AND NOW BACK TO THE PRESENT...
snoscythe wrote:

Did you watch the game? Which QB had the higher completion percentage? Who threw for more ypc? Who threw for more touchdowns? In every measurable and intangible way to evaluate performance, Nelson wins in every metric except for velocity and pretty spirals. Heaps is our QB of the future, but your are deluding yourself to think Nelson wasn't the best QB on the field Saturday.


I didn't ever say that he wasn't.


When Heaps surpasses Nelson, I'll admit it. All I's asking is for people like you who have been ripping on Nelson to admit that the kid is pretty dang good.


I did. I have been nothing but honest about Nelson's strengths and flaws (yes he does have them) the way I see them. If you notice, I have done the same with Jake and his inaccuracy and jitters in game one, but you don't. <BLINDERS>



Where was your loyalty to #13 in Spring and Fall camp? You're honestly going to pull the loyalty card on me now after your online rants against Nelson?


I am completely supportive of him. But supporting him, and pretending that he has a cannon of an arm like you guys do is - for me - two different roads. I have posted in many other places on this site that I am impressed with his ability to move the ball, and I like his version of the spread offense and the added running attack. I simply disagree that he can make all the throws.


And now, even after the kid leads us to win our opener, you persist in throwing him under the bus and citing all of the reasons why he should have failed. And then you accuse me of "hate for a guy in blue." You can't be serious. Saying Heaps should wait a year is not saying he can't cut it, that he isn't D-I material, that he shouldn't be on scholarship, or that he's wasting a roster spot. But somehow, saying "wait a year" is hating the guy, but those other things are somehow to be construed as supporting the guys with big Y's on their helmets. Give me a break.

So I'm not supposed to come on here and post things I am worried about as far as BYU goes? But you can, yeah that makes sense. I am worried about his throwing, is that a crime? I have good reason to be, as I am clearly not the only one that can see his arm for what it is. I am worried what will/would happen when defenses realize all they have to do is stuff the box and spy him, and dare him to throw into man coverage.



You clearly have an agenda pro-Nelson, or Anti-Heaps. I'm guessing it's pro-Nelson and Anti-hype, maybe not Anti Heaps. Which is fine, I think even you can see now that Heaps isn't like any of those other qb's you lumped him in with, and that you have been wrong to be so against him. Or maybe you don't, I don't care. I am done doing this two-step with you. I merely am answering this because you called me out.
B
Brayden Green
Italics wrote:
I'm not seeing any Riley bashing here, nor am I seeing anyone say that Nelson didn't play better than Heaps on Saturday. Stating his limitations is doing just that: stating his limitations. I think some people here need a football IQ test performed on them.


Exactly.
S
snoscythe
LOL BlueIsBetter. First off--that post "within one week of committing"??? It was made May 31st. I didn't realize he waited until the end of Spring Ball to make his commitment. I like how when I try to bring expectations back to earth about Heaps in camp when he hasn't made a single throw in a game yet, it's hate, disdain and unfair. Did you look in between the lines when you were bolding the doubts? Did you miss where I said of Heaps: "Heaps has great potential; Even on a raw score, he is one of the top prospects BYU has brought into QB camp." Yet when you keep kicking Nelson to the curb after he posts a phenomenal game, it's being "realistic." IF you've bothered to read any of my posts in the other forums, you'll notice I admit Heaps is the QB of the future, even our QB for next year. I just don't know that he's our guy for 2010. I was a doubter, and after Saturday I don't think he's ready this year. And I still don't think he is a Barkley/Stafford talent.



Now, as you saw fit to go back and compile all of my doubts about a kid who's never taken a snap, I've got to call you out when you claim that you've been "completely supportive" of Nelson. Let me ask you a question--in all my doubts about the Heaps-hype, did I ever say he wasn't a good prospect? That he wasn't a good quarterback? Or did I simply say he was unproven, that he hadn't accomplished anything at this level yet--that perhaps we were getting ahead of ourselves crowning him the Messiah of 2010. Did I say he wasn't a BYU QB like you said about Nelson? Did I ever guarantee a loss against UW if Heaps started? Here's how you have been "completely supportive" of the guys in blue, our own Riley Nelson:



"He's got a weak arm, and bad mechanics. Watch the games he played back... We are in trouble if he starts"

"Nelson loses us the first game, just because he is a very poor man's version of jake locker"

"And him hanging around the team for a couple years because he was never good enough to be our starter (and still isn't - that's beside the point), yeah that'll be a game-decider for sure. NELSON wouldn't have even seen any ANY game time last year if the class act of the century, Brendan Gaskins, didn't step TO THE SIDE. So he was our 3rd string qb last year. GO EXPERIENCE!!!"

"Does your man look like a competitive D-1 quarterback capable of running a BYU offense? No."

"Nelson doesn't have a chance, if physical talent and mental poise are a factor. Watch a couple Heaps highlight videos w/ 4th qtr comebacks in playoff games, and you'll get the picture. Then pull up a couple Riley Nelson vids, oh wait, there are none."

"a perfect example of why Nelson won't start (#13) just before midway through." (referring to a Spring Camp video)

"this time, Nelson doesn't have another Gaskins to step aside and give him the job."

"he is not a BYU qb."

In response to Kitic saying "Riley Nelson has legitimate D-1 talent. - he certainly has the tools to be a very good college QB. He has the ability...", you said: "No he doesn't. Not at qb, and certainly not in an offense like ours."

"Unless he learns to 1) make better reads 2) not get happy feet 3) learn how to throw a better ball and 4) get a stronger arm, he is not who we need. "

"Nelson is nothing but a stopgap, be it one year, or one game. He is not a BYU qb."

"The cougars didn't even offer Riley out of high school, and the only reason they accept the transfer and schollie up is because they could see past last year to this, where we would have a big hole. Thank goodness Jake decides to come here, otherwise we wouldn't have him as an option. We would all be sitting around arguing about how many games we are going to lose this year."

When someone opined that Nelson would start the first three games: "In this scenario, that means we are starting out 1-2.... Riley just doesn't have what the BYU playbook needs."

Later = "Guaranteed Riley doesn't get us to 11 as a full fledged, taking snaps starter. We plateu at 8 wins, maybe 9 with losses to UW, FSU, TCU, and maybe a CSU, or an Air Force."

When Riley outplayed Jake for the first time in the Fall:"The numbers don't mean a thing, either way. Unless it is verified that they are going against the same defense, with the same players defending, and catching." You know, like Saturday night? But, wait, you have an out for that too.

When someone posted Nelson's high school stats: "3a football. You aren't really passing against the elite - playing the "Beatdiggers" and the Delta Rabbits... Let's keep in mind that Utah State, a torrid program, was his biggest offer, and he didn't get offered from BYU or Utah."

"The numbers don't matter, show me on the field who is better." How is this different from me questioning something even more ridiculous--star rankings?

One of my favorites: "I could step in right now and do the same thing, literally."

"Nelson can't get us to 10 wins"

"Heaps is a BYU qb, Lark is a BYU qb, Munns is a BYU qb (when he shakes off the mission rust) Riley isn't."



So don't sit there and claim that I am a hater because I wanted to see a kid earn his stripes on the field instead of riding magazine articles and youtube videos to the starting position. For thinking that a true freshman quarterback is a bad idea and that it would be preferable to redshirt him. But I stopped short of saying he couldn't play, that he didn't deserve to play at this level, that he doesn't deserve to be a BYU QB. Don't pretend that you've been completely supportive of the guy "in blue" when you made it very clear you didn't think he should even be in blue. Granted, once Bronco announced the 2 QB format, you eased up and showed some hope, but the past few weeks don't erase the entire offseason. If you think being hesitant to buy into hype is disdainful, how do you describe your attitude? You call me "papa heaps" for trying to remind you guys all offseason that Nelson was a winner and a real factor in a legitimate QB race you had all declared over in March. What does that make you? His jilted ex-lover?



I'm done with you BlueIsBetter. I at least had the balls to come on in March and announce that I would be taking the Lark/Nelson position to remind you guys that Heaps wasn't to be gifted his spot. Lark disappeared in the race, and my only pony left to ride was Nelson. I was tired of seeing fans like you treat our previous prized recruits as refuse the minute someone with 3 or more stars signed a NLOI. I was tired of the way we were treating the boys in blue. You never offered any reason for your vitriol towards Nelson and your constant refrain that he isn't a BYU quarterback.
M
Mars
hawkwing wrote:
I was and still am a Nelson doubter to a certain extent. Not at his ability to move the ball, not at his ability to run. I disagree with everyone that he can make every throw that we need him to. He cannot make the deep ball throw, and probably won't be asked to. That third and long (to Hoffman, I think) that he had to dive for is very telling.
I disagree completely. Riley can make EVERY throw required of a BYU QB. I saw it during practice and I saw it during the game. Riley can easily throw a 20-30 yard pass in the air. Can he throw a 60? No. But that isn't a BYU QB pass either, that's a hail mary.

The deep ball Heaps threw his first series? That's a classic "BYU pass". And Nelson can't throw it.



That being said, the "Nelson is GOD!" threads are getting ridiculous. It was just one game.



Also, I don't see very many "rain-clouds" on CougarCorner. Wondering if people are attacking strawmen.
Sponsored Advertisementad content
M
Mars
snoscythe wrote:
Quarterback? At this point, yes. Does Jake have the potential to be better in a couple of years? Yes. Passer? Well, Heaps might be more accurate and throw harder, but he doesn't know the playbook yet (see his throws to absolutely nobody) and he is putting too much mustard on it. If you want a passer, Heaps is your guy, but Saturday all of that passing ability translated into a PER rating 60+ points below the non-passer. I want a guy who's going to get us wins, and based off of Saturday night, there is a clear choice for a winner.

I'm going to go ahead and label you a "Heaps-Hater" at this point. I really think you would have been upset if Jake threw 2 TDs and Nelson threw 0 on Saturday. It's not than Hoffman messed up on his route, it's that Jake did. It's not that a WR dropped a catchable ball, it's that Jake is throwing too hard. So hard, that high school kids can easily catch it, but not college players. I guess Nelson also put too much mustard on the shovel pass that was dropped.



Not liking the homerism shown here.
M
Mars
Italics wrote:
I'm not seeing any Riley bashing here, nor am I seeing anyone say that Nelson didn't play better than Heaps on Saturday. Stating his limitations is doing just that: stating his limitations. I think some people here need a football IQ test performed on them.

Bingo.



The "Eat your Nelson Crow!" thread wasn't good enough for some. Maybe reposting it under another title is enough now. Or maybe we'll see 5 more versions of this same thread between now and Saturday. Because Bronco clearly knows way less than poster X.
C
Cougs_Rule
Who can stream better, Sno or BiB?

Well personally, i think that Sno can stream longer. But BiB can reach back and gather alot of force.

Ok, guys just having some fun and making a point. Try not to take that too personal.
S
snoscythe
Mars wrote:
Quarterback? At this point, yes. Does Jake have the potential to be better in a couple of years? Yes. Passer? Well, Heaps might be more accurate and throw harder, but he doesn't know the playbook yet (see his throws to absolutely nobody) and he is putting too much mustard on it. If you want a passer, Heaps is your guy, but Saturday all of that passing ability translated into a PER rating 60+ points below the non-passer. I want a guy who's going to get us wins, and based off of Saturday night, there is a clear choice for a winner.

I'm going to go ahead and label you a "Heaps-Hater" at this point. I really think you would have been upset if Jake threw 2 TDs and Nelson threw 0 on Saturday. It's not than Hoffman messed up on his route, it's that Jake did. It's not that a WR dropped a catchable ball, it's that Jake is throwing too hard. So hard, that high school kids can easily catch it, but not college players. I guess Nelson also put too much mustard on the shovel pass that was dropped.



Not liking the homerism shown here.


Mars, the extra mustard on the passes is a common problem with any quarterback with a strong arm who steps up a level in play. Beck struggled with it in college, Jamarcus Russell never got over it stepping up to the NFL, and Heaps is facing that himself. It's their easiest way to compensate for the closer and faster coverage they see stepping up from high school to college, college to the NFL. Heaps is rocketing the ball as a defense mechanism against the fastest defenses he's seen. Like Beck did, he'll settle down. But you are fooling yourself if you can't admit he is overdoing it and putting the receivers at a disadvantage. Even the CBS announcer, who don't have a horse in this race, commented twice that Heaps needed to dial it back to be successful. He must be a Heaps-hater too.



Why am I a hater for saying Heaps thows too hard, but you are just keeping it real in saying Nelson can't throw a classic BYU pass? I guess that makes you a Nelson-hater?
S
snoscythe
Mars wrote:
I'm not seeing any Riley bashing here, nor am I seeing anyone say that Nelson didn't play better than Heaps on Saturday. Stating his limitations is doing just that: stating his limitations. I think some people here need a football IQ test performed on them.

Bingo.



The "Eat your Nelson Crow!" thread wasn't good enough for some. Maybe reposting it under another title is enough now. Or maybe we'll see 5 more versions of this same thread between now and Saturday. Because Bronco clearly knows way less than poster X.


This thread was a response to that thread--even after Saturday, certain fans who predicted Nelson would be exposed against UW, instead of admitting the kid might be a pretty good quarterback, they were instead pointing out his faults and telling us he will be exposed for the noodle-arm he is when we face a "good defense." All I was asking in this thread was a what point fans will stop doubting the kid and forecasting his downfall. I'm a Heaps-hater for saying he has warts and could use a year of seasoning, but all of you saying Nelson will never cut it and waiting for him to stumble are just being objective somehow.
Page 2 of 3
This is an archived topic from the original CougarCorner forum. New replies are not accepted.