QB Breakdown

I didn't post that AF is the only team that had the ability to put 8 in the box and play man on our recievers. I stated that they had the ability and not everyone we play will have that ability. There is a difference.

frdbtr wrote:
I didn't post that AF is the only team that had the ability to put 8 in the box and play man on our recievers. I stated that they had the ability and not everyone we play will have that ability. There is a difference.

Ok, point taken. My mistake. It remains that you don't need much though to stop our WR's if you are pressing on the line. Even SDSU has that ability. The only team we play that clearly doesn't have that ability is UNLV, and UNM.







EDIT: After thinking about it, UNLV might have that ability too in their DB. They are beyond weak in the run game, though.

Blueisbetter I am sorry but I have to disagree did he call a bad game last week, sure we were bad on offense and defense against AFA. His offense has been very good the last 4 or 5 years. So throw all that out the window for one bad game give me a break!!!!!!

BlueIsBetter wrote:

I didn't post that AF is the only team that had the ability to put 8 in the box and play man on our recievers. I stated that they had the ability and not everyone we play will have that ability. There is a difference.

Ok, point taken. My mistake. It remains that you don't need much though to stop our WR's if you are pressing on the line. Even SDSU has that ability. The only team we play that clearly doesn't have that ability is UNLV, and UNM.







EDIT: After thinking about it, UNLV might have that ability too in their DB. They are beyond weak in the run game, though.

I disagree, I think the only teams left on our Sched that can successfully do it are TCU and Utah. If Washington had the ability, they would have done it(Pac10 talent). FSU probably has the athletes, but are they discaplined enough to pull it off? Remains to be seen. I also disagree that BYU doesn't have recievers who can create seperation. Separation is done by crisp route running, not speed. Maybe the wrong passing plays were called to get the 8 out of the box. We don't know. All we know is that what was being done was not working, and Riley is taking ALL the blame for it when in actuallity, it was a complete breakdown by the offensive and defensive coaching staffs along with players not completing their assignments correctly on the offense and defense.



Also no where have I said that Heaps shouldn't start, I just have bad feelings about him starting because I can see the BYU fans turning on him if he starts, plays badly and we lose. Maybe not the FSU game but what if he loses to a conference foe that BYU fans think we should dominate (everyone except utah and TCU).

I disagree with that, frdbtr. SDSU for sure can on the outside. Crisp route running doesn't mean anything, if you are pressed on the line within the 5 yard bump, and the defender has the speed to make up if you get past him. Washington doesn't have Pac 10 talent, especially not defensively. Have you watched them (outside us playing them) in the last 4 years? There is a reason they had a winless season two years ago. I would argue that 5 if not 6 teams in the MWC have better defenses than UW. (Us, TCU, Utah, SDSU, Air Force, maybe CSU, mabye Wyoming. - not UNLV, and not UNM. )



Separation is separation, it does have to do with crisp routes, and speed. We are average on both, with our strength being crisp routes. If you are running crisp routes, then you shouldn't be running into each other (Jake's interception - still a bad mistake by him to throw it)



A good defender will press us on the line, although they normally don't. When Riley is in and they stack the box, they are forced to do that because they have a much more open field, when blitzing and when not.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

I didn't post that AF is the only team that had the ability to put 8 in the box and play man on our recievers. I stated that they had the ability and not everyone we play will have that ability. There is a difference.

Ok, point taken. My mistake. It remains that you don't need much though to stop our WR's if you are pressing on the line. Even SDSU has that ability. The only team we play that clearly doesn't have that ability is UNLV, and UNM.







EDIT: After thinking about it, UNLV might have that ability too in their DB. They are beyond weak in the run game, though.

CSU doesn't have the ability either.

CDH wrote:
Blueisbetter I am sorry but I have to disagree did he call a bad game last week, sure we were bad on offense and defense against AFA. His offense has been very good the last 4 or 5 years. So throw all that out the window for one bad game give me a break!!!!!!

You can point out at least one game a year we lose when we shouldn't have because of play calling. The other games in conference, we simply have far superior talent offensively than the other teams defensively, with the exception of Utah and TCU annually. So our players have willed a win.



If he is so smart, why is he switching our best player on offense to a different position every other play, rendering him inneffective? If he is so smart, why is everything we do outside of the tackles, when last week we outweighed the opposing line by almost 500 pounds? If he is so smart why did we lose to Utah on the same type of playcalling opting to throw instead of the 7 yards per carry Unga was averaging inside the tackles EVERY PLAY? Why did we absolutely blank at home last year against against FSU with one of our most seasoned offenses we have had in 5 years? Why are you benching your throwing talent, while down 2 touchdowns, and your other qb has been stopped for 4 drives in a row? Why do a qb draw to the outside on 4th and 2, when the whole world knows that is what we are going to do? Even worse than that, why bench your future for throwing a pick, then send him out on 4th and 2 after he has been sitting down for 45 realtime minutes? A throwing qb, mind you. When AF called a time out, surprised to see Heaps come out, what was the play that was drawn up? A qb draw for Riley that we had already called no less than 7 times. Brilliant!!! How about throwing every single down that Heaps is in, instead of creating a balanced offense with him at the helm?



There are a hundred more examples out there, see them or don't. The numbers don't show everything, because we are hands down better than 80% of the teams that we play, and I think that we have had players that have made something out of nothing. For example, how many calls did Max audible out of last year? A lot. And the offense didn't ever work better last year, than when we were in the "no huddle" with Max calling the plays.

kitic77 wrote:

frdbtr wrote:
I didn't post that AF is the only team that had the ability to put 8 in the box and play man on our recievers. I stated that they had the ability and not everyone we play will have that ability. There is a difference.

Ok, point taken. My mistake. It remains that you don't need much though to stop our WR's if you are pressing on the line. Even SDSU has that ability. The only team we play that clearly doesn't have that ability is UNLV, and UNM.







EDIT: After thinking about it, UNLV might have that ability too in their DB. They are beyond weak in the run game, though.

CSU doesn't have the ability either.

But they do have the ability to stop us more than we stop them, and score more. They wouldn't stop us every time doing this - as in, absolute shut down (SEE: Air Force). But they would be able to stop us enough with Riley in there full time.

Um, no they don't. CSU is AWFUL.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
I disagree with that, frdbtr. SDSU for sure can on the outside. Crisp route running doesn't mean anything, if you are pressed on the line within the 5 yard bump, and the defender has the speed to make up if you get past him. Washington doesn't have Pac 10 talent, especially not defensively. Have you watched them (outside us playing them) in the last 4 years? There is a reason they had a winless season two years ago. I would argue that 5 if not 6 teams in the MWC have better defenses than UW. (Us, TCU, Utah, SDSU, Air Force, maybe CSU, mabye Wyoming. - not UNLV, and not UNM. )



Separation is separation, it does have to do with crisp routes, and speed. We are average on both, with our strength being crisp routes. If you are running crisp routes, then you shouldn't be running into each other (Jake's interception - still a bad mistake by him to throw it)



A good defender will press us on the line, although they normally don't. When Riley is in and they stack the box, they are forced to do that because they have a much more open field, when blitzing and when not.

I ask again....why haven't more teams done this on us in the past? I am telling you that BYU has NEVER had recievers that got seperation because of speed, it has always been timing and route running. So if the recievers aren't getting seperation, they need to run their routes better...bottom line. Jamming a guy at the line of scrimmage will not work on a guy like Chambers who loves contact, in fact I would put my money on Chambers in that match up every time.

frdbtr wrote:



I ask again....why haven't more teams done this on us in the past? I am telling you that BYU has NEVER had recievers that got seperation because of speed, it has always been timing and route running. So if the recievers aren't getting seperation, they need to run their routes better...bottom line. Jamming a guy at the line of scrimmage will not work on a guy like Chambers who loves contact, in fact I would put my money on Chambers in that match up every time.

you would lose your money on chambers. sure he could shake the contact after 2-3 seconds, but then run what? a yard before time runs out for the qb to throw it, (if he hasn't already been sacked). Or knowing Riley, he is probably already gone through one read, and is in run mode. It isn't about separating or not, it is about timing, and that is what you are failing to see. They don't need to stop him forever, just long enough to get to the qb. Chambers cannot separate. Period.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

I ask again....why haven't more teams done this on us in the past? I am telling you that BYU has NEVER had recievers that got seperation because of speed, it has always been timing and route running. So if the recievers aren't getting seperation, they need to run their routes better...bottom line. Jamming a guy at the line of scrimmage will not work on a guy like Chambers who loves contact, in fact I would put my money on Chambers in that match up every time.

you would lose your money on chambers. sure he could shake the contact after 2-3 seconds, but then run what? a yard before time runs out for the qb to throw it, (if he hasn't already been sacked). Or knowing Riley, he is probably already gone through one read, and is in run mode. It isn't about separating or not, it is about timing, and that is what you are failing to see. They don't need to stop him forever, just long enough to get to the qb. Chambers cannot separate. Period.

So I ask again, why haven't teams done this more often to mess up our timing? You still have not answered that question. If I am right, Chambers has caught passes for BYU, in fact he has caught touchdown passes. If all teams had to do to stop BYU's timing is play press man coverage, why don't they all do it. Also, I have watched the Huskies, in fact I saw them beat USC last year who, last I checked had recievers that are a lot higher rated then BYU's bunch, in fact they are supposed to be pretty fast so their talent or lack of it is not the issue IMO.



The difference in the WA and AF games is execution. In the WA game, the offense executed its game plan, in the AF game, the offense did not. Simple as that. Yes, the AF defense had something to do with that but the 8 in the box and man coverage is not the simple answer, it is not the curve ball that all teams will just have to throw at BYU while Riley is behind center and completely shut us down. It worked because AF had the ability to cover our recievers with its secondary and shut us down. I don't think many other teams have that ability. AF did the same thing to Houston in their bowl game last year and Houston had a seasoned QB, we have a couple inexperienced guys this year. I am done with this argument.

Since we r mired in negativity, why are our invisible tight ends going unmentioned. We do not yet have the weapons we have enjoyed on offense for at least 4 years. Gonna need to b patient.



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declocoug wrote:
Thanks kitic. I don't think it mattered who was playing QB at AFA.



What's going to be ridiculous is if Heaps starts at FSU and we get blown out. Do we let Lark take a shot?

We have to accept that getting blown out is a possibility with any of our quarterbacks against FSU. We know that Nelson and Heaps are the top 2. We don't play FSU the rest of the year, so to go to Lark would be following the Gary Crowton model for quarterback management.



We don't have a "finished product" at quarterback right now. There will be bad times. If we change quarterbacks every time something bad happens, then we prolong the problem.



The question is, can Nelson be a drop back passer? If he can develop that, like Steve Young did, then give him the reins, and redshirt Heaps next year. If Nelson cannot, then give Heaps the reins. Let him know that no matter how bad things might get he is your guy and to not lose your confidence.

Show me one time that Chambers has caught a touchdown behind his defender. (And not right behind him in the endzone on a 10 yard fade.)



UW beat USC last year barely, because the qb couldn't get the receivers the ball enough. You say that you watched that game? Well did you fail to notice that Matt Barkley, the starting qb, was injured, and that his backup that had never taken a snap in D1 ball went for only 100 yards passing?



Of course you didn't. If Barkley is in there, that game isn't even close. Kind of like when they lost to LSU, Stanford, Notre Dame, Arizona State, Oregon, UCLA or Oregon State. Or the close win against Arizona when they gave up 33 points.



If you watch, defenders play up closer against us, than most other teams. Because they know they won't get burned. They already do this. Chambers' guy always plays within 10 yards, and if he doesn't it is because it is a zone play, or he is not very good. Just because you don't notice they do it, doesn't mean they don't. Again, the difference is Max Hall being very very accurate and having the balls to throw into tight coverage. Riley isn't even close to that level on either account. It is just a matter of time. Air Force found out quickly, and adjusted within the game. My guess is Florida is already practicing this now they know Riley is "starting."

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Show me one time that Chambers has caught a touchdown behind his defender. (And not right behind him in the endzone on a 10 yard fade.)



UW beat USC last year barely, because the qb couldn't get the receivers the ball enough. You say that you watched that game? Well did you fail to notice that Matt Barkley, the starting qb, was injured, and that his backup that had never taken a snap in D1 ball went for only 100 yards passing?



Of course you didn't. If Barkley is in there, that game isn't even close. Kind of like when they lost to LSU, Stanford, Notre Dame, Arizona State, Oregon, UCLA or Oregon State. Or the close win against Arizona when they gave up 33 points.



If you watch, defenders play up closer against us, than most other teams. Because they know they won't get burned. They already do this. Chambers' guy always plays within 10 yards, and if he doesn't it is because it is a zone play, or he is not very good. Just because you don't notice they do it, doesn't mean they don't. Again, the difference is Max Hall being very very accurate and having the balls to throw into tight coverage. Riley isn't even close to that level on either account. It is just a matter of time. Air Force found out quickly, and adjusted within the game. My guess is Florida is already practicing this now they know Riley is "starting."

Beater? .... Beater? .... Buehler?..... Buehler?