Look for Davies on the bench today

Ddawg wrote:
+1 x 10!! Seriously - Folks ought to call & protest Brandon's picture being removed. I'm going to call the Athletic Dept. on Monday & inquire. I think that's wrong - though I understand why it was done. Probably the same Einstein's that put out the "suspended for HC violation" group think crowd. At least they are consistent!!!! Brilliant.

On a scale from one to ten on things to get all upset about, this is down about a two or maybe a really low three.



This is something that would be nice to know why the picture was taken down, but it would be a lot nicer to let Davies and the team deal with it and we should keep our fat butts out of it.

urroner wrote:

+1 x 10!! Seriously - Folks ought to call & protest Brandon's picture being removed. I'm going to call the Athletic Dept. on Monday & inquire. I think that's wrong - though I understand why it was done. Probably the same Einstein's that put out the "suspended for HC violation" group think crowd. At least they are consistent!!!! Brilliant.

On a scale from one to ten on things to get all upset about, this is down about a two or maybe a really low three.



This is something that would be nice to know why the picture was taken down, but it would be a lot nicer to let Davies and the team deal with it and we should keep our fat butts out of it.

It's not about being upset. It's about the handling of this incident - and a series of mis-steps being made by BYU. It's about having "class" vs. "no-class" while navigating the Brandon Davies land-mines.

Ddawg wrote:
It's not about being upset. It's about the handling of this incident - and a series of mis-steps being made by BYU. It's about having "class" vs. "no-class" while navigating the Brandon Davies land-mines.

How many of us have any idea of what is happening, especially in the background, and why it's happening? Maybe Davies agreed to having his picture removed? Would any protestation be of any use or would they just make things for Davies worse?



It might be a matter of class vs. no class, but, then again, it might be a matter of people poking their noses in where those noses don't belong.



Could it be that we are interjecting ourselves into a situation already handled or being handled like some dumb ass sports reporter?

urroner wrote:

It's not about being upset. It's about the handling of this incident - and a series of mis-steps being made by BYU. It's about having "class" vs. "no-class" while navigating the Brandon Davies land-mines.

urroner wrote:

How many of us have any idea of what is happening, especially in the background, and why it's happening? Maybe Davies agreed to having his picture removed? Would any protestation be of any use or would they just make things for Davies worse?



It might be a matter of class vs. no class, but, then again, it might be a matter of people poking their noses in where those noses don't belong.



Could it be that we are interjecting ourselves into a situation already handled or being handled like some dumb ass sports reporter?

No one but Coach Rose, AD Holmoe & the BYU Prez. have a full understanding of what is happening. Not even Brandon Davies knows fully about the decision making process - until he is informed of their course of action & what will occur. Certainly he is not inside the "loop" as different courses of action are being discussed and batted about.



Perhaps Brandon was consulted about removing his picture - perhaps he wasn't. How can an inquiry about removing a picture from a team roster make things worse for Brandon?? Do you have so little faith in BYU?? Do you think they are that petty and retaliatory?? Really?? You do?? I think not.



So tell me - where do people's "noses belong" vs. "not belong.?" Are you offended if I call BYU Athletic Dept. and make an inquiry? If you are, I do not understand that. Is this not the USA where we believe in free flowing information? (mostly) Don't Alumni and financial donors have a vested interest in actions and decisions affecting their school?



I understand your point - but I think you are wrong. I believe a respectful & professional inquiry is not wrong. It jeopardizes no one, or anything. It depends on how you conduct yourself - your tone - your measured questions. I personally like to follow up a phone inquiry with an email (which I ask for during the conversation).



I personally have never had a problem with such a process - either when I initiate it - or when I am receiving the inquiry @ my work (I have handled many such inquiries, complaints, even lawsuits). If handled courteously, professionally & respectfully - organizations appreciate those types of inquiries because they can directly get their message out and clear the air.



Does that make any sense??? For a guy that is normally jovial & consistently TIC sarcastic - you seem to have gotten a bit tweaked over my desire to ask a question directly of BYU. I don't understand your angst - I hope my post helps explain a little better my position on the matter & calm your concern.



Personally - I understand why Brandon was suspended from playing from the BYU basketball team for the remainder of the season. But - I believe they made some PR mistakes in the way they handled it. Both Brandon Davies and BYU's public perception need to be guarded & protected.



Here's an important question: Does BYU want Brandon to work though this and come back to the team? If possible - does BYU want Brandon Davies back playing with the team next season. I believe they do - statement I have read have said as much.



Personally - I would have suspended Brandon from playing with the basketball team for the remainder of this season. I would not have removed him "from the team." There is an important distinction. Athletic teams do it all the time. Players are suspended for violating team rules - they don't suit up - but they are still part of the team.



BYU essentially did this (sort of) by having Brandon sit with the team during the last game vs. Wyoming. He even participated in cutting down the net after the Win. I am very glad that decision - and offer to Brandon was made. The crowd in the Marriott Center went wild! It was a proud moment for BYU fans!! A solid, positive experience for Brandon that had an extremely tough week.



So - what would I have done? Suspend Brandon from playing the rest of the season for violating team rules (absolutely true) - pending an inquiry and additional information. Have him still sit on the bench with the team. Keep his picture posted with the team. Do all I could to help the young man work though this - and be fully re-instated with the team for next season.



Do I think Coach Rose, AD Tom Holmoe & the University are doing most of this? Yes - with a few mis-steps along the way. I wish the best for all involved.

Removing BD's picture and bio from this year's team is like trying to pretend he was never on the team and that his mere mention as a contributor is condoning his action and some how associating BYU with honor code violations.



He was on the team. He contributed to it. IIRC, they did the same thing when Broadus got kicked off as well. Struck his name from the records, like he never existed.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Removing BD's picture and bio from this year's team is like trying to pretend he was never on the team and that his mere mention as a contributor is condoning his action and some how associating BYU with honor code violations.



He was on the team. He contributed to it. IIRC, they did the same thing when Broadus got kicked off as well. Struck his name from the records, like he never existed.

Which I personally feel is the wrong approach - bad decision making - achieves nothing.



Just my .02 worth.

Ddawg wrote:
Are you offended if I call BYU Athletic Dept. and make an inquiry?

If you personally walked up the Pres. S or even Coach Rose and demanded that they tell you why Davies picture was removed and then you demanded that the picture be returned, why would I be offended?



Are you offended that I have a different opinion than you do?



Suppose you did ask why the picture was taken down and they refused to answer you, would you be offended?



I'm an engineer, therefore I think like an engineer and I try to see all possible consequences to a given situation and determine what the risks are and ways to mitigate the risks and sometimes I have to decide is if a particular path should be excluded because of the risks that would be introduced when there is a much better path with less risk or risks that are more easily mitigated.



I have also learnt that I don't need to know everything about most situations, especially those that I have very little control over and that don't affect me.



I was privy to a conversation many years ago between a good friend of mine and a counselor. My friend had a small son that he thought might not be his physical son, but he had raised the son as if he was. He asked the counselor if it would be okay to do a DNA test to make sure one way or the other.



The counselor asked him what the relationship between him and his son was and what he wanted it to be in the future and my friend replied that as far as he was concerned the kid was his and would always be his no matter what.

"So, why do you want to do the DNA test?"



"So I could know if he really is my offspring or not."



"And what would you do with this knowledge?"



"Nothing. I just want to know."



"And if the kid is not your offspring, what then?"



"Nothing, I would never tell him."



"Okay, so let's say that it turns out the boy is not yours, let's examine two things. Firstly, how is this going to affect the relationship between you and your wife? Will you hold it against your wife? Are you willing to let this knowledge come in and potentially destroy your relationship with her and secondly, one of these days, that son of yours, the son that you love dearly, is going to be a teenager and you and he are going to get into arguments and you are going to lose you temper with him one day and you have a good chance of blurting out the results of that test to him, are you wiling and ready to deal with the devastation that this worthless piece of information is going to cause to that boy?"

Yeah, I would like to know why that picture was removed, but what am I going to do with that info? How important is the acquisition of that info to me? Does the knowledge of what Davies did to deserve to get booted off the team make any of our lives better? Is it worth my time and stress to get worked up about? For me, the answer is not "no," but "HELL NO!!!!"



What you decide to do is for you to decide and I can't decide it for you. I personally don't see any reason for you to walk down that path and I have told you so, but if you decide to do so, I'm not holding you back and I must definitely won't be offended. I just think it's silly. Sometimes it's just better to let sleeping dogs lie.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Removing BD's picture and bio from this year's team is like trying to pretend he was never on the team and that his mere mention as a contributor is condoning his action and some how associating BYU with honor code violations.



He was on the team. He contributed to it. IIRC, they did the same thing when Broadus got kicked off as well. Struck his name from the records, like he never existed.

My wife was a BYU athlete. She got married, her name changed and suddenly she's no longer an alumni of the team despite her repeated efforts to get them to put her back on the site. :gross: Would have been cool to go to the site and show my kids their mother's name and photo, but I guess not...



BYU is notorious for having a "process" and sticking to the process no matter what.

I'm pretty sure that Brandon cannot travel with the team, since he currently isn't a member of the team. However, if he chooses to make the trip to LV/Denver/Anaheim/Houston???? and pay his own way and everything, I'm sure he can be on the bench if he wants to be. I think the team definitely got an emotional boost from him being there on the sideline.

stuckinbig10country wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Brandon cannot travel with the team, since he currently isn't a member of the team. However, if he chooses to make the trip to LV/Denver/Anaheim/Houston???? and pay his own way and everything, I'm sure he can be on the bench if he wants to be. I think the team definitely got an emotional boost from him being there on the sideline.

Since he is not on the team, can somebody else pay his way there and BYU not be in trouble of sanctions from the NCAA!

urroner wrote:

I'm pretty sure that Brandon cannot travel with the team, since he currently isn't a member of the team. However, if he chooses to make the trip to LV/Denver/Anaheim/Houston???? and pay his own way and everything, I'm sure he can be on the bench if he wants to be. I think the team definitely got an emotional boost from him being there on the sideline.

Since he is not on the team, can somebody else pay his way there and BYU not be in trouble of sanctions from the NCAA!

Yep. He can also go recruit for us. ;)

BlueIsBetter wrote:

stuckinbig10country wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Brandon cannot travel with the team, since he currently isn't a member of the team. However, if he chooses to make the trip to LV/Denver/Anaheim/Houston???? and pay his own way and everything, I'm sure he can be on the bench if he wants to be. I think the team definitely got an emotional boost from him being there on the sideline.

Since he is not on the team, can somebody else pay his way there and BYU not be in trouble of sanctions from the NCAA!

Yep. He can also go recruit for us. ;)

Hey, I could go for that.

urroner wrote:

Are you offended if I call BYU Athletic Dept. and make an inquiry?

If you personally walked up the Pres. S or even Coach Rose and demanded that they tell you why Davies picture was removed and then you demanded that the picture be returned, why would I be offended?



Are you offended that I have a different opinion than you do?



Suppose you did ask why the picture was taken down and they refused to answer you, would you be offended?



I'm an engineer, therefore I think like an engineer and I try to see all possible consequences to a given situation and determine what the risks are and ways to mitigate the risks and sometimes I have to decide is if a particular path should be excluded because of the risks that would be introduced when there is a much better path with less risk or risks that are more easily mitigated.



I have also learnt that I don't need to know everything about most situations, especially those that I have very little control over and that don't affect me.



I was privy to a conversation many years ago between a good friend of mine and a counselor. My friend had a small son that he thought might not be his physical son, but he had raised the son as if he was. He asked the counselor if it would be okay to do a DNA test to make sure one way or the other.



The counselor asked him what the relationship between him and his son was and what he wanted it to be in the future and my friend replied that as far as he was concerned the kid was his and would always be his no matter what.

"So, why do you want to do the DNA test?"



"So I could know if he really is my offspring or not."



"And what would you do with this knowledge?"



"Nothing. I just want to know."



"And if the kid is not your offspring, what then?"



"Nothing, I would never tell him."



"Okay, so let's say that it turns out the boy is not yours, let's examine two things. Firstly, how is this going to affect the relationship between you and your wife? Will you hold it against your wife? Are you willing to let this knowledge come in and potentially destroy your relationship with her and secondly, one of these days, that son of yours, the son that you love dearly, is going to be a teenager and you and he are going to get into arguments and you are going to lose you temper with him one day and you have a good chance of blurting out the results of that test to him, are you wiling and ready to deal with the devastation that this worthless piece of information is going to cause to that boy?"

Yeah, I would like to know why that picture was removed, but what am I going to do with that info? How important is the acquisition of that info to me? Does the knowledge of what Davies did to deserve to get booted off the team make any of our lives better? Is it worth my time and stress to get worked up about? For me, the answer is not "no," but "HELL NO!!!!"



What you decide to do is for you to decide and I can't decide it for you. I personally don't see any reason for you to walk down that path and I have told you so, but if you decide to do so, I'm not holding you back and I must definitely won't be offended. I just think it's silly. Sometimes it's just better to let sleeping dogs lie.

You have an interesting spin on things.



#1. I never suggested I would personally approach Pres. Samuelson and talk to him about Brandon Davies or his picture.



Inaccurate statement #1. Your assumption and conclusion is wrong.



#2. I never said I would approach Coach Rose and talk to him about Brandon Davies or the removal of Brandon's picture from the team website.



Innacurate statement #2. Your assumption and conclusion is wrong.



#3 I never said I would demand that the picture be returned.



Innacurate staatement #3. Your assumption and conclusion is wrong.



#4 I don't care if your opinion is different than mine. It might surprise you - but I don't. Not at all.



#5 "Suppose you did ask why the picture was taken down .... "



Now you begin"supposing." Let's suppose - what if the moon was really made of cheese? Supposition & conjecture lives in fairy tales and your posts. I did not "suppose" in my post. You created thyat in your mind. I'm surprised an Engineer trained to work with factual data strayed from his discipline so easily. Surprising.



#6 For an Engineer - trained in logical, mathematical, and cause and effect thinking - you form incorrect conclusions pretty regularly about my post. I am quite surprised to see the shallowness of your post - and that you engage in such petty tactics. I think it's interesting to read your posts on this thread.



For instance:

" ... we should keep our fat butts out of it."

" ... like some dumb ass sports reporter?"



What are you even talking about?



For instance - your story about the DNA is sweet - but has no bearing or relevance to anything I have posted. My calling the BYU Athletic Dept. and talking to them about Brandon's picture being removed is an entirely different topic. I think it's pretty obvious why it was removed - don't you think so Mr. Engineer?? I was going to call and inquire about the possibility of Brandon Davies picture being restored. Period. I know why it was removed.



The point is - removing the picture was wrong - is is hurtful - especially when you want Brandon to come back and play next year after this gets worked out. Q: Could BYU have achieved it's current record & National status without Brandon Davies this year? No. He was an integral part of this teams success this year. He deserves to have his picture posted with the team - regardless if he is suspended now. That's being inclusive. That's loving Brandon. Giving him respect. Making a statement that he was an important part of the BYU basketball team in 2010 - 2011.



#7 "Yeah, I would like to know why that picture was removed ..... "

You really don't know?? Really??? Come on ...



#8 "What you decide to do is for you to decide and I can't decide it for you."



Thank you for supporting my Constitutional right of free speech and expression. That is comforting to me. I think we can be friends.



Mr Urroner - I have always thought you were a pretty entertaining guy. I think you went off the rails on this one. I did call the BYU Atletic Dept. today - and we had a very pleasant conversation. Your fears and concerns did not materialize.

Ddawg wrote:



You have an interesting spin on things.



#1. I never suggested I would personally approach Pres. Samuelson and talk to him about Brandon Davies or his picture.



Inaccurate statement #1. Your assumption and conclusion is wrong.



#2. I never said I would approach Coach Rose and talk to him about Brandon Davies or the removal of Brandon's picture from the team website.



Innacurate statement #2. Your assumption and conclusion is wrong.



#3 I never said I would demand that the picture be returned.



Innacurate staatement #3. Your assumption and conclusion is wrong.

I didn't say that you said you would do any of those things. I said that even if you would to do those things that I wouldn't be offended. Now, why did I say that? In an earlier post, you asked me

Are you offended if I call BYU Athletic Dept. and make an inquiry?

This is my way of say I wouldn't be offended even if you did more than call them up. I apologize for not making that clearer.

Ddawg wrote:
#4 I don't care if your opinion is different than mine. It might surprise you - but I don't. Not at all.

I figured that much, but I can't figure out why you seem to be so reactive to my posts.

Ddawg wrote:
#5 "Suppose you did ask why the picture was taken down .... "



Now you begin"supposing." Let's suppose - what if the moon was really made of cheese? Supposition & conjecture lives in fairy tales and your posts. I did not "suppose" in my post. You created thyat in your mind. I'm surprised an Engineer trained to work with factual data strayed from his discipline so easily. Surprising.

Engineer also work in the realm of supposition. That is how we measure the potentiality of risk and of doing things differently. I'm an electrical engineer with a solid background in software architecture and there is plenty of what-ifs in software.



I was just trying to figure out what the limitations of you not being offended are. Engineers do this in product testing all the time. Some call it boundary testing. If a product is to work between a given set of boundaries, you test at the boundaries and even beyond sometimes.



You asked me if I was offended and I was just trying to find the boundaries of you being offended.

Ddawg wrote:
#6 For an Engineer - trained in logical, mathematical, and cause and effect thinking - you form incorrect conclusions pretty regularly about my post. I am quite surprised to see the shallowness of your post - and that you engage in such petty tactics. I think it's interesting to read your posts on this thread.



For instance:

" ... we should keep our fat butts out of it."

" ... like some dumb ass sports reporter?"



What are you even talking about?

Too many people are sticking their noses in where they don't belong and I believe that we all need to keep our noses our of things that aren't our business. As far as the "some dumb ass sports reporter" comment, I was talking about Franchuck.

Ddawg wrote:
For instance - your story about the DNA is sweet - but has no bearing or relevance to anything I have posted. My calling the BYU Athletic Dept. and talking to them about Brandon's picture being removed is an entirely different topic. I think it's pretty obvious why it was removed - don't you think so Mr. Engineer?? I was going to call and inquire about the possibility of Brandon Davies picture being restored. Period. I know why it was removed.

First I am assuming that you are assuming you know the true reason why it was removed though you are acting as if you have actual knowledge of the situation.



Do you know why it was removed or are you assuming that you know why it was removed? Did anybody in the know tell you why it was removed? If you do, then please enlighten the rest of us where you got this info, but from your statement "I think it's pretty obvious why it was removed" is an indicator that you don't have access to that knowledge unless you trying to appear that you don't have it. Having lived on this earth for almost 60 years and having been through hell and back several times, I have learnt that sometimes what seems the most obvious and a slam dunk only ends up being a rabbit trail which is a dead end and leads nowhere.



Sometimes Occam's razor, or the principle of "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one," can be very, very wrong since we don't have sufficient knowledge of the situation.

Ddawg wrote:
The point is - removing the picture was wrong - is is hurtful - especially when you want Brandon to come back and play next year after this gets worked out. Q: Could BYU have achieved it's current record & National status without Brandon Davies this year? No. He was an integral part of this teams success this year. He deserves to have his picture posted with the team - regardless if he is suspended now. That's being inclusive. That's loving Brandon. Giving him respect. Making a statement that he was an important part of the BYU basketball team in 2010 - 2011.

Once again, do you have knowledge other than conjecture, that the rest of us don't have. How do you know that removing the picture was wrong? As obscure and highly unlikely as it sounds, could Davies have consented to having it taken down? Is this a possibility?

Ddawg wrote:
#7 "Yeah, I would like to know why that picture was removed ..... "

You really don't know?? Really??? Come on ...

To paraphrase what I asked in the above comment, do you know or are you assuming that you know?

Ddawg wrote:
#8 "What you decide to do is for you to decide and I can't decide it for you."



Thank you for supporting my Constitutional right of free speech and expression. That is comforting to me. I think we can be friends.

Great. Friends are better than fiends.

Ddawg wrote:
Mr Urroner - I have always thought you were a pretty entertaining guy. I think you went off the rails on this one. I did call the BYU Atletic Dept. today - and we had a very pleasant conversation. Your fears and concerns did not materialize.

So, how did it go? BTW, I had no fears that something terrible would happen. If you can put up with the likes of me, talking to the BAD would be a walk in the park though I do admit I have concerns.



Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding. Talking over the internet, especially when it deals with things that people are very passionate about is only minimally acceptable and a lot of the "humanness" gets lost. There is no where neither of us could stop the other in mid-sentence and ask "WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?????"