Warning Signs

SpiffCoug wrote:

Lawboy wrote:

I don't believe in this offense enough to even be pessimistic..

Your problem(and I mean that in a nice way) is that you have not yet come to terms with teh fact that BYU is not a team that wins with offense first. Those days are gone unbder BM. We are not a score 50 pts team anymore. We do not win 52-49, we win 24-17. defense first, field position, time of possession, with enough offense to get it done.



We are not a throw 50x+ per game team every game, we have changed, and some BYU fans have not evolved with that change just yet.



Point being, we can have a mediocre offense this year and still be very successful. In fact, I expect it.



We beat Utah by scoring 20 Saturday. They will not reach that mark, unless we gift them the points.

I get what you are saying, but that isn't my problem. I don't care how BYU scores, but I don't think this offense is good enough, against a good D, to score enough points.



I believe completely in our D. I don't think our offense is good. At all.

Good thing this week the difference between their O and our D is greater than the delta between our O and their D.



BYU's offense will be more successful than Utah's.

I hope so. But that hasn't always helped us in the past. Often we have needed a miracle finish to win when this is the case.



Just once I want a win that is comfortable so I can relax and enjoy the game. Is that really too much to ask?

northerncougar wrote:

northerncougar wrote:
I don't believe in this offense enough to even be pessimistic..

Your problem(and I mean that in a nice way) is that you have not yet come to terms with teh fact that BYU is not a team that wins with offense first. Those days are gone unbder BM. We are not a score 50 pts team anymore. We do not win 52-49, we win 24-17. defense first, field position, time of possession, with enough offense to get it done.



We are not a throw 50x+ per game team every game, we have changed, and some BYU fans have not evolved with that change just yet.



Point being, we can have a mediocre offense this year and still be very successful. In fact, I expect it.



We beat Utah by scoring 20 Saturday. They will not reach that mark, unless we gift them the points.

I get what you are saying, but that isn't my problem. I don't care how BYU scores, but I don't think this offense is good enough, against a good D, to score enough points.



I believe completely in our D. I don't think our offense is good. At all.

Well what about utah's offense. are they good enough to put more points up on the board against our defense than our offense is to theirs?



don't forget they are missing two of their starting safeties. Don't forget their starting qb just went down and hayes sucks. don't forget they coaches were swamping tackes for guards and guards for tackles during the game becuase their oline was doing such an amazingly horrible job.



i think that our offense will put up more points than theirs will and that is why we will win. i know that sounds elementary, but riley and our offense may not be great but they are good enough to put 20 points on the utes. the utes will struggle to get that.

northerncougar wrote:



Just once I want a win that is comfortable so I can relax and enjoy the game. Is that really too much to ask?

Yes, that is too much to ask. Far to much to ask.



We lost 54-10 last year.



If we win this year, the odds of it being a relaxing, dominating win are very low.



Utah always gets up for this game more than BYU does. They are coming off an effing embarrassing performance up in Logan and are going to be refocused and pissed. They will have the home crowd and be pumped.



BYU can, and should, win this game. I agree with what others have said - the game will hinge on turnovers. Neither offense is going to run up and down the field with ease. It will be a defensive struggle.



So who will turn the ball over more times? I worry BYU will. Riley always has so many passes that are almost picks. He throws crap up for grabs instead of throwing out of bounds or taking a sack.



But... the utes are a bit demoralized right now. If BYU can come out with a bang, play smart, smash-nose football and create turnovers, it could be a great day in SLC saturday.

jonnylingo wrote:

Lawboy wrote:

I don't believe in this offense enough to even be pessimistic..

Your problem(and I mean that in a nice way) is that you have not yet come to terms with teh fact that BYU is not a team that wins with offense first. Those days are gone unbder BM. We are not a score 50 pts team anymore. We do not win 52-49, we win 24-17. defense first, field position, time of possession, with enough offense to get it done.



We are not a throw 50x+ per game team every game, we have changed, and some BYU fans have not evolved with that change just yet.



Point being, we can have a mediocre offense this year and still be very successful. In fact, I expect it.



We beat Utah by scoring 20 Saturday. They will not reach that mark, unless we gift them the points.

I get what you are saying, but that isn't my problem. I don't care how BYU scores, but I don't think this offense is good enough, against a good D, to score enough points.



I believe completely in our D. I don't think our offense is good. At all.

Well what about utah's offense. are they good enough to put more points up on the board against our defense than our offense is to theirs?



don't forget they are missing two of their starting safeties. Don't forget their starting qb just went down and hayes sucks. don't forget they coaches were swamping tackes for guards and guards for tackles during the game becuase their oline was doing such an amazingly horrible job.



i think that our offense will put up more points than theirs will and that is why we will win. i know that sounds elementary, but riley and our offense may not be great but they are good enough to put 20 points on the utes. the utes will struggle to get that.

Utah's offense is a disaster right now. But I expect our O to give up a TD on a pick 6 or a turnover in the red-zone. I figure we might be good enough for to TD's, they will to TD's and a FG.

hypercoug wrote:

Just once I want a win that is comfortable so I can relax and enjoy the game. Is that really too much to ask?

Yes, that is too much to ask. Far to much to ask.



We lost 54-10 last year.



If we win this year, the odds of it being a relaxing, dominating win are very low.



Utah always gets up for this game more than BYU does. They are coming off an effing embarrassing performance up in Logan and are going to be refocused and pissed. They will have the home crowd and be pumped.



BYU can, and should, win this game. I agree with what others have said - the game will hinge on turnovers. Neither offense is going to run up and down the field with ease. It will be a defensive struggle.



So who will turn the ball over more times? I worry BYU will. Riley always has so many passes that are almost picks. He throws crap up for grabs instead of throwing out of bounds or taking a sack.



But... the utes are a bit demoralized right now. If BYU can come out with a bang, play smart, smash-nose football and create turnovers, it could be a great day in SLC saturday.

That's what I've been saying.

By the way, I am not sure why you keep saying "over the last 15 years," and "16 years of pain" and all of that. Utah only started being relevant in 2004 (8 years ago). The first few years of those "pain years" as you state them were Crowton years, where BYU didn't win anyone - anywhere - at any time.



Besides the Crowton years we are at a dead split with them. I wouldn't call an even 50-50 split with our uncontested rival "years of pain" ..... but that's just me.



Sure, when compared to the absolute dominance over them the prior 20 years before that you can experience some amount of discomfort, but they have gotten better as a program. They are going to win more.



If you go back another 50-75 years before that, I would consider those the "years of pain" when they were winning 9 out of 10 contests against us. Compared with those years, I don't think "pain" quantifies what you are going for.



And if it does: LIke I tell my 4 year old, "Well if it hurts, then stop doing it!"

If you are having such extreme pain from watching BYU football, maybe you just shouldn't do it anymore. But it is your life to live, and it is your choice as to how much discomfort you allow to enter into it. :)

northerncougar wrote:



Just once I want a win that is comfortable so I can relax and enjoy the game.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's been WAY too long since we won going away and really showed our dominance. Let's give 'em hell this year (for once).

BlueIsBetter wrote:
This is not a hard schedule. The very best teams that BYU is playing against will just barely go bowling. I don't predict more than 8 wins for anyone other than Boise State and *maybe* Notre Dame (because of all the cupcakes they play).



Utah State might get 8 wins beating up on the WAC.



BYU has zero worldbeaters on the schedule. This is not even half the schedule that Max Hall played either his junior or senior year.



The Max Hall cougars would go through this years schedule without a loss. Our offensive identity died, and turned into defensive identity and strength. It is just too bad that the Max Hall cougars didn't have a defense half this good, they would have run the table and probably won a BCS game or two.

SIMPLY PUT - Oh Really?



List all of Max Hall's losses. The toughest teams he played were MWC over the years and they were home and away.



While I totally agree that there is not a Top 5 team and probably not a Top 10 Team and possibly not a Top 15 team on our schedule, there are four road games and two home games that could go either way - and odds against winning six of six of those type of games is not high for any team.



I was Max Hall's biggest supporter even before the U win. But remember, Max Hall lost to Utah one year and played poorly until he threaded the needle for a narrow win vs Utah and that was a low scoring game.



If we had LSU at home and 11 cupcakes we would SIMPLY have a better chance. ask BSU, Utah, Hawaii, and TCU. With that schedule you only need to catch lightening in a bottle once and have little risk of getting upset. That is the formula and it works.



Search deep and hard and try to find one BCS Buster that did it with four tough road games and a couple of feisty opponents at home - without whiffing and taking themselves out of it. I do not think you will find 1. None. Simply None.

I think Cougarbib has a good point when it comes to strategic scheduling, as I like to call it, but I don't think we need to play 11 cupcakes.



Remember, a big part of BYU going independent is exposure. And even with an ESPN partnership, nobody is going to watch BYU if we're just playing cupcakes every week.



In short, while we all want BYU to make it to one of the elite bowl games, there is more to consider than just that. You don't throw quality completely out the window just to play in a BCS bowl.

KingCoug wrote:
I think Cougarbib has a good point when it comes to strategic scheduling, as I like to call it, but I don't think we need to play 11 cupcakes.



Remember, a big part of BYU going independent is exposure. And even with an ESPN partnership, nobody is going to watch BYU if we're just playing cupcakes every week.



In short, while we all want BYU to make it to one of the elite bowl games, there is more to consider than just that. You don't throw quality completely out the window just to play in a BCS bowl.

If you are a wanna be BCS Buster - and we are - You Simply need to do what the at least SIX BCS butters did and do not try to do what the ZERO BCS Busters tried. Even ND, who has a golden Dome and a golden PATH to a BCS Bowl fails - because their schedule is too ambitious and they could even get in with a loss - but fail every year.



We do not need to play 11 cupcakes. But giving 2 for 1 to good teams is stupid. And the proven BCS Busters played in the WAC - WAC - WAC, MWC, MWC, MWC for the six that come immediately to mind. And they generally did not augment those schedules with Top 20 teams on the road. Maybe none at all for any of them. Few, if any at all. Go look.

Cougarbib wrote:

I think Cougarbib has a good point when it comes to strategic scheduling, as I like to call it, but I don't think we need to play 11 cupcakes.



Remember, a big part of BYU going independent is exposure. And even with an ESPN partnership, nobody is going to watch BYU if we're just playing cupcakes every week.



In short, while we all want BYU to make it to one of the elite bowl games, there is more to consider than just that. You don't throw quality completely out the window just to play in a BCS bowl.

If you are a wanna be BCS Buster - and we are - You Simply need to do what the at least SIX BCS butters did and do not try to do what the ZERO BCS Busters tried. Even ND, who has a golden Dome and a golden PATH to a BCS Bowl fails - because their schedule is too ambitious and they could even get in with a loss - but fail every year.



We do not need to play 11 cupcakes. But giving 2 for 1 to good teams is stupid. And the proven BCS Busters played in the WAC - WAC - WAC, MWC, MWC, MWC for the six that come immediately to mind. And they generally did not augment those schedules with Top 20 teams on the road. Maybe none at all for any of them. Few, if any at all. Go look.

BYU gave rise to the term bcs buster. we are the original bcs buster.

Cougarbib wrote:




If you are a wanna be BCS Buster - and we are - You Simply need to do what the at least SIX BCS butters did and do not try to do what the ZERO BCS Busters tried. Even ND, who has a golden Dome and a golden PATH to a BCS Bowl fails - because their schedule is too ambitious and they could even get in with a loss - but fail every year.



We do not need to play 11 cupcakes. But giving 2 for 1 to good teams is stupid. And the proven BCS Busters played in the WAC - WAC - WAC, MWC, MWC, MWC for the six that come immediately to mind. And they generally did not augment those schedules with Top 20 teams on the road. Maybe none at all for any of them. Few, if any at all. Go look.

I think the difference comes down to busting the BCS being the only thing that matters to you, while it's only one factor to me. And that's due in big part to the fact the BCS bowl games are relatively meaningless, money aside. Even BCS championship is relatively meaningless in the absence of a real, honest, play off format.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
By the way, I am not sure why you keep saying "over the last 15 years," and "16 years of pain" and all of that. Utah only started being relevant in 2004 (8 years ago). The first few years of those "pain years" as you state them were Crowton years, where BYU didn't win anyone - anywhere - at any time.



Besides the Crowton years we are at a dead split with them. I wouldn't call an even 50-50 split with our uncontested rival "years of pain" ..... but that's just me.



Sure, when compared to the absolute dominance over them the prior 20 years before that you can experience some amount of discomfort, but they have gotten better as a program. They are going to win more.



If you go back another 50-75 years before that, I would consider those the "years of pain" when they were winning 9 out of 10 contests against us. Compared with those years, I don't think "pain" quantifies what you are going for.



And if it does: LIke I tell my 4 year old, "Well if it hurts, then stop doing it!"

If you are having such extreme pain from watching BYU football, maybe you just shouldn't do it anymore. But it is your life to live, and it is your choice as to how much discomfort you allow to enter into it. :)

You need to go back to history class. Utah became relevant in this rivalry in 1993. 18 years through 2011. Utah has won 12 of those games. McBride closed the gap and it has been that way since.



We have had 1 blowout win of Utah since 1993. Through 1992 we dominated with the rare exception of the the 1988 type games. Utah has destroyed us twice since 1993. They have either made a game of it or won, when they had no business doing that, in almost every game in that time frame.



I don't enjoy that. I get real gun-shy when we are supposed to win comfortably and we either lose or barely win. After that happening multiple times, it gets difficult to see things changing.



I just recent history we were favored in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009. It took miracles to win or we lost. We could have won in 2008 if it we would have continued to run the ball. We made so many mistakes in 2010 and 2011, it was almost comical. Those easily could have been wins if the ball bounces our way just a little.



So, yes, it really is easy to see that there has been a lot of pain lately. I don't know what extreme pain is, I never said that, but okay. If this history is how you enjoy the rivalry, more power to you. For me it makes it difficult to believe things will be different until I see things change from what I have seen in the past 18 years.



Pretty simple actually.

jonnylingo wrote:

KingCoug wrote:
I think Cougarbib has a good point when it comes to strategic scheduling, as I like to call it, but I don't think we need to play 11 cupcakes.



Remember, a big part of BYU going independent is exposure. And even with an ESPN partnership, nobody is going to watch BYU if we're just playing cupcakes every week.



In short, while we all want BYU to make it to one of the elite bowl games, there is more to consider than just that. You don't throw quality completely out the window just to play in a BCS bowl.

If you are a wanna be BCS Buster - and we are - You Simply need to do what the at least SIX BCS butters did and do not try to do what the ZERO BCS Busters tried. Even ND, who has a golden Dome and a golden PATH to a BCS Bowl fails - because their schedule is too ambitious and they could even get in with a loss - but fail every year.



We do not need to play 11 cupcakes. But giving 2 for 1 to good teams is stupid. And the proven BCS Busters played in the WAC - WAC - WAC, MWC, MWC, MWC for the six that come immediately to mind. And they generally did not augment those schedules with Top 20 teams on the road. Maybe none at all for any of them. Few, if any at all. Go look.

BYU gave rise to the term bcs buster. we are the original bcs buster.

Not to quibble over words, he says ........ But, he says.....



We were the original - no doubt - but we did not bust the BCS - we created it. And though create it we did - we beat 6-6 Michigan and not Alabama. We got the NC. We deserved it in my book - because Nebraska and others turned down the chance to try to prove that we were not the best. And we followed up by beating Washington the next year.



Good and bad came from the BCS type things that we triggered.



Good



If you go undefeated, you might get to play Pitt, Bama, Bama, TCU, BSU to name a few I remember in a BCS Bowl. You get MONEY BYU did not get and a shot at a big time opponent - oK Pitt notwithstanding.



BAD - beat them and #2 is as high as anyone has gotten.



But now we have a playoff of sorts coming because of The BCS Busters.



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KingCoug wrote:

If you are a wanna be BCS Buster - and we are - You Simply need to do what the at least SIX BCS butters did and do not try to do what the ZERO BCS Busters tried. Even ND, who has a golden Dome and a golden PATH to a BCS Bowl fails - because their schedule is too ambitious and they could even get in with a loss - but fail every year.



We do not need to play 11 cupcakes. But giving 2 for 1 to good teams is stupid. And the proven BCS Busters played in the WAC - WAC - WAC, MWC, MWC, MWC for the six that come immediately to mind. And they generally did not augment those schedules with Top 20 teams on the road. Maybe none at all for any of them. Few, if any at all. Go look.

I think the difference comes down to busting the BCS being the only thing that matters to you, while it's only one factor to me. And that's due in big part to the fact the BCS bowl games are relatively meaningless, money aside. Even BCS championship is relatively meaningless in the absence of a real, honest, play off format.

Actually it is a bunch of others on here always saying the season is over with the first loss. History Lesson. The Bibster is the guy who recommends supporting our team instead of hating U, MWC, etc., etc., temporarily hating PAC a little bit for snubbing Y for U, that says.



We have a fun team to watch. We are ranked more often that not. Enjoy the games. Come early. Stay late. Hope for a miracle every year but never feel entitled to one. And 10-3, 11-2, over and over deserves respect and appreciation even if all of our dreams do not come true.



I will not be me wanting to fire everyone in sight if we lose a few games.



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Cougarbib wrote:
Actually it is a bunch of others on here always saying the season is over with the first loss.

I've never agreed with that because I'll take the exposure we get with independence over another meaningless MWC championship.

History Lesson. The Bibster is the guy who recommends supporting our team instead of hating U, MWC, etc., etc., temporarily hating PAC a little bit for snubbing Y for U, that says.

Why can't you do both?

We have a fun team to watch. We are ranked more often that not. Enjoy the games. Come early. Stay late. Hope for a miracle every year but never feel entitled to one. And 10-3, 11-2, over and over deserves respect and appreciation even if all of our dreams do not come true.



I will not be me wanting to fire everyone in sight if we lose a few games.

As long as he's winning 10 or 11 games on a regular basis, Bronco's job is safe. But the fan base will continue to be restless because, sooner or later, one expects us to break through that 10 or 11 win ceiling.

KingCoug wrote:

Actually it is a bunch of others on here always saying the season is over with the first loss.

I've never agreed with that because I'll take the exposure we get with independence over another meaningless MWC championship.

History Lesson. The Bibster is the guy who recommends supporting our team instead of hating U, MWC, etc., etc., temporarily hating PAC a little bit for snubbing Y for U, that says.

Why can't you do both?

We have a fun team to watch. We are ranked more often that not. Enjoy the games. Come early. Stay late. Hope for a miracle every year but never feel entitled to one. And 10-3, 11-2, over and over deserves respect and appreciation even if all of our dreams do not come true.



I will not be me wanting to fire everyone in sight if we lose a few games.

As long as he's winning 10 or 11 games on a regular basis, Bronco's job is safe. But the fan base will continue to be restless because, sooner or later, one expects us to break through that 10 or 11 win ceiling.

Exactly. A lot of fans are not as satisfied with 11 wins as The Bibster is. That is why I keep pointing out th eformula becasue it is usually the very same fans wantnig to play a steady diet of Wisconsin, Texas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, etc. That is not how to get there -because LSU and Alabama do not even get there that way. Nobody does.



The main reason I do not want to see BYU over-schedule is BYU ever mixes its next Jake Heaps mistake with a 2013 schedule - you are going to see 0-12 like UW did with Jake Locker. I do not think the BYU fan base can handle that. So let's not do it.



Or if T. Hill goes 6-6 next year or 5-7 and no bowl game - fans are going to turn on him like there is no tomorrow. I think it is unfair for any team to schedule such that they set their players up for failure.



Go look at Tulsa and their 5 losses last year. That was a very good team. They gave us all we could handle. They were probably better tnan U. And look what U did to us.

Cougarbib wrote:
Exactly. A lot of fans are not as satisfied with 11 wins as The Bibster is. That is why I keep pointing out th eformula becasue it is usually the very same fans wantnig to play a steady diet of Wisconsin, Texas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, etc. That is not how to get there -because LSU and Alabama do not even get there that way. Nobody does.



The main reason I do not want to see BYU over-schedule is BYU ever mixes its next Jake Heaps mistake with a 2013 schedule - you are going to see 0-12 like UW did with Jake Locker. I do not think the BYU fan base can handle that. So let's not do it.



Or if T. Hill goes 6-6 next year or 5-7 and no bowl game - fans are going to turn on him like there is no tomorrow. I think it is unfair for any team to schedule such that they set their players up for failure.



Go look at Tulsa and their 5 losses last year. That was a very good team. They gave us all we could handle. They were probably better tnan U. And look what U did to us.

As interesting as it looks on paper, the 2013 season may prove your concerns right. Big name opponents are exciting but it will wear off quick if we start losing a lot.



I guess I'm wondering what kind of independent schedule you would want for BYU. Can you give a 12 game example of what you're talking about?

I am only one person but I am okay with a 6-6 season next year with that kind of season. Our goal is to get an upset or two not 10 wins. But we will need to see some improvement in the team building towards the seasons beyond. It will be a rebuilding year not a reload. But we can't do 6 losses each year.

Cougarbib wrote:

We have a fun team to watch. We are ranked more often that not. Enjoy the games. Come early. Stay late. Hope for a miracle every year but never feel entitled to one. And 10-3, 11-2, over and over deserves respect and appreciation even if all of our dreams do not come true.



I will not be me wanting to fire everyone in sight if we lose a few games.



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I started as a freshman in 1973, and became a big fan right away. BYU had not had a winning season in years, and Gary Sheide was fun to watch. It was interesting, because BYU fans were thrilled when BYU was invited to the Tangerine bowl (I'm not sure if it was that year or not), even though they got blown out.



I think today's fans have become spoiled, and have a hard time realizing that there are two teams playing every game, and one of them is going to lose. I will continue to support and cheer on the cougars, no matter the result. I will be disappointed in losses, but I will continue to cheer for them. I would rather see them play marquee opponents and win some/lose some than to see them play all cupcakes just to try to get the undefeated season. BYU is getting some great exposure. People want to watch because they put a great, entertaining, tough team out there and play hard. I for one appreciate that.