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Drew: Carlino May Be Headed Out

by snoscythe · 3/1/2013

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snoscythe
Gunk wrote:
Anyone claiming Carlino hasn't improved needs to spend some time with a stat sheet. Here, I'll do it for you since looking up players stats before commenting appears to be a foreign concept to many on this forum.



2013 - 1.7 A/T ratio with 137 assists and 81 turnovers

2012 - 1.5 A/T ratio with 115 assists and 75 turnovers


Wow. Your numbers AMAZE. How foolish of me to say Carlino has not improved. Since last year he has increased his ATO ratio by the statistically insignificant amount of an extra +0.158 assist for every turnover. I apologize profusely for observing that Carlino has failed to improve. At that rate of progress, he just might crack 1.9 his senior year!



I apologize for the snark--but do you really think his ATO ratio somehow shows improvement to a degree to give one hope for his future?
G
Gunk
Mars wrote:
Mars wrote:
Little Collinsworth will be the 2nd-best player on the team next year...
LOL!!! I highly doubt it. KC had no outside shot to begin with. KC's ball handling skills were horrific. Can't play PG cause he can't dribble. Can't play the 2 because he can't shoot and is too slow to defend it. Won't play the 3 because that's Haws' position. I highly doubt KC has the same work ethic and patience as Haws.

All those things are true with Brandon Davies as well, and he's the 2nd-best player on the team this year...


KC isn't 6'9" and 235+ lbs. KC doesn't play power forward/center and has no back to the basket moves. Austin has a better post up game than KC.



KC's (6'6" 210 lbs) freshman stats:

26 min/game; 5.8 pts/game; 5 boards/game; 48% FG; 57% FT; and 26% 3P



Davies (6' 9" 235 lbs) freshman stats:

13.5 min/game; 5.4 pts/game; 3 boards/game; 53% FG; 57% FT



So, basically Davies as a freshman got half as many minutes as KC, but was just as effective. If Davies got 26 min a game as a freshman he likely would have been averaging 10 - 12 pts/game and pulling down 6+ boards. And, you're really trying to claim KC will be the 2nd best player on the team?



KC is listed as a Guard. But unless he miraculously develops a shot he can't play the 2 otherwise our continual problems at the 2 will persist. KC is undersized at the 4 and has no post up moves. If KC wants to play, he'll have to do it at the 3 and work on a mid-range shot, which currently doesn't exist.
G
Gunk
snoscythe wrote:
Anyone claiming Carlino hasn't improved needs to spend some time with a stat sheet. Here, I'll do it for you since looking up players stats before commenting appears to be a foreign concept to many on this forum.



2013 - 1.7 A/T ratio with 137 assists and 81 turnovers

2012 - 1.5 A/T ratio with 115 assists and 75 turnovers


Wow. Your numbers AMAZE. How foolish of me to say Carlino has not improved. Since last year he has increased his ATO ratio by the statistically insignificant amount of an extra +0.158 assist for every turnover. I apologize profusely for observing that Carlino has failed to improve. At that rate of progress, he just might crack 1.9 his senior year!



I apologize for the snark--but do you really think his ATO ratio somehow shows improvement to a degree to give one hope for his future?


Why apologize for the snark when you don't mean it? :skeptic: Seems odd to me to be knowingly snarky and apologize for it. Kind of like starting a racist joke with, "I'm not racist, but..."



Has Carlino improved? When it comes to ball handling/security, yes he has improved as measured by his assists to turnover ratio. He's also improved in steals, rebounding, and FG%.



Is it "significant?" That depends on perspective. But to definitively say "Carlino hasn't improved" is false. He has. He's also regressed in a couple of areas, mainly 3P% (though he's shooting better now than at the beginning of the season) and FT%.



Carlino gets billed as being careless and a turnover machine. Last season, he committed 3.0 turnovers a game. This season he's at 2.6. That's a 15% improvement. Not great, but not to bad. Assuming Carlino is able to improve 15% each season, as a senior he'll be averaging 1.88 turnovers a game. By comparison, Delladova, as a senior is averaging 2.7 turnovers a game. Would anyone here describe Delladova as "careless"? Nope.



Perhaps a better question we should be asking is how much should Carlino be improving? Once we define that we can determine whether he's meeting the curve or not.
C
Cougs_Rule
Look, Delavadiva drives me crazy. Bt its Not just his mouthpiece and antics. He makes his entire team better. Carlino isn't close to that. And it's not just his turnovers. His quick clankers don't help. A quick, brick, three is as good as a turnover from Rosé's standpoint. And that's partially what got him benched v Zaga. MC has to learn how to make his whole team better or become as good of a scorer as Jimmer.

He's our guy. He should be in there. Bt that doesn't mean he can't continue to improve. Not all that's stats is all that. "Even the Devil can quote scriptures" (WShakespeare). Gotta see the whole tamale.
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Gunk
Cougs_Rule wrote:
Look, Delavadiva drives me crazy. Bt its Not just his mouthpiece and antics. He makes his entire team better. Carlino isn't close to that. And it's not just his turnovers. His quick clankers don't help. A quick, brick, three is as good as a turnover from Rosé's standpoint. And that's partially what got him benched v Zaga. MC has to learn how to make his whole team better or become as good of a scorer as Jimmer.

He's our guy. He should be in there. Bt that doesn't mean he can't continue to improve. Not all that's stats is all that. "Even the Devil can quote scriptures" (WShakespeare). Gotta see the whole tamale.


I don't disagree one bit, except maybe on the slight inference to me using stats like the devil uses scriptures.



But the criticism directed towards Carlino is really disproportionate to the rest of the team and the positives he brings to the court. He isn't the biggest problem with the team and I'm not even convinced he's that much of a problem. He's more of a solution, IMO, if enabled to be so.



Carlino has no shooting guard to work with and no power forward. The lack of a shooting guard hurts him the most.
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Cougarbib
Gunk wrote:
Look, Delavadiva drives me crazy. Bt its Not just his mouthpiece and antics. He makes his entire team better. Carlino isn't close to that. And it's not just his turnovers. His quick clankers don't help. A quick, brick, three is as good as a turnover from Rosé's standpoint. And that's partially what got him benched v Zaga. MC has to learn how to make his whole team better or become as good of a scorer as Jimmer.

He's our guy. He should be in there. Bt that doesn't mean he can't continue to improve. Not all that's stats is all that. "Even the Devil can quote scriptures" (WShakespeare). Gotta see the whole tamale.


I don't disagree one bit, except maybe on the slight inference to me using stats like the devil uses scriptures.



But the criticism directed towards Carlino is really disproportionate to the rest of the team and the positives he brings to the court. He isn't the biggest problem with the team and I'm not even convinced he's that much of a problem. He's more of a solution, IMO, if enabled to be so.



Carlino has no shooting guard to work with and no power forward. The lack of a shooting guard hurts him the most.


You read too much into the criticism. Most BYU fans rank the team as follows



Tyler Haws. Number one. Clearly number 1. Even though he is only a sophomore and almost straight off his mission.



Davies. Number two. Clearly number 2. Has not met expectations for his senior year.



Carlino. Number three. Clearly number 3. Inconsistent. Streaky. Out of control at times. Did not improve as much as most fans expected.



Then there is a huge gap with guts like Cusick, Zylstra, Sharp, Austin, and others showing up on occasion. In other words, the rest of the team plays like reserves - not starters.



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B
Brayden Green
Carlino isn't the biggest problem, he is just the guy with the ball most.



If Haws handled the ball like Carlino, he would be getting heat for not passing (to people that don't move or even *try*get open) and driving uselessly at the hoop.
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Cougs_Rule
Cougarbib wrote:
Cougs_Rule wrote:
Look, Delavadiva drives me crazy. Bt its Not just his mouthpiece and antics. He makes his entire team better. Carlino isn't close to that. And it's not just his turnovers. His quick clankers don't help. A quick, brick, three is as good as a turnover from Rosé's standpoint. And that's partially what got him benched v Zaga. MC has to learn how to make his whole team better or become as good of a scorer as Jimmer.

He's our guy. He should be in there. Bt that doesn't mean he can't continue to improve. Not all that's stats is all that. "Even the Devil can quote scriptures" (WShakespeare). Gotta see the whole tamale.


I don't disagree one bit, except maybe on the slight inference to me using stats like the devil uses scriptures.



But the criticism directed towards Carlino is really disproportionate to the rest of the team and the positives he brings to the court. He isn't the biggest problem with the team and I'm not even convinced he's that much of a problem. He's more of a solution, IMO, if enabled to be so.



Carlino has no shooting guard to work with and no power forward. The lack of a shooting guard hurts him the most.


You read too much into the criticism. Most BYU fans rank the team as follows



Tyler Haws. Number one. Clearly number 1. Even though he is only a sophomore and almost straight off his mission.



Davies. Number two. Clearly number 2. Has not met expectations for his senior year.



Carlino. Number three. Clearly number 3. Inconsistent. Streaky. Out of control at times. Did not improve as much as most fans expected.



Then there is a huge gap with guts like Cusick, Zylstra, Sharp, Austin, and others showing up on occasion. In other words, the rest of the team plays like reserves - not starters.



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Well said, Bib.
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Guest
I like Carlino, I think he's pretty good at this point in his career, but he has some problems, namely wild, uncontrolled shots, from very poor positions very early in the shot-clock at the worst possible time. These don't show up on as turnovers on the stat sheet, but in my mind they are turnovers.



I think he'll continue to get better and really hope he can improve his mental game.
M
Mars
Gunk wrote:
KC's (6'6" 210 lbs) freshman stats:

26 min/game; 5.8 pts/game; 5 boards/game; 48% FG; 57% FT; and 26% 3P



Davies (6' 9" 235 lbs) freshman stats:

13.5 min/game; 5.4 pts/game; 3 boards/game; 53% FG; 57% FT



So, basically Davies as a freshman got half as many minutes as KC, but was just as effective. If Davies got 26 min a game as a freshman he likely would have been averaging 10 - 12 pts/game and pulling down 6+ boards. And, you're really trying to claim KC will be the 2nd best player on the team?



KC is listed as a Guard. But unless he miraculously develops a shot he can't play the 2 otherwise our continual problems at the 2 will persist. KC is undersized at the 4 and has no post up moves. If KC wants to play, he'll have to do it at the 3 and work on a mid-range shot, which currently doesn't exist.

You win this round. Curse you for your logic!



Seriously. Was he a lot better in my mind than he was in reality?



"Averaged 5.8 points, 5.1 rebounds, 2.1 assists and 1.1 steals while shooting .481 from the field, .259 from three and .568 from the free throw line.

Posted season highs of 16 points, 15 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals and 3 blocks.

Scored in double figures 10 times, had double-figure rebounds 3 times and had 1 double-double.

Led the team in rebounds 11 times and assists 5 times.

Posted 15 rebounds against Florida in the NCAA Tournament.

Had 11 points and 9 boards vs. New Mexico in the MWC Tournament.

At Colorado State had 16 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists.

Posted 12 points and 10 boards at Creighton."



I imagined Carlino at the 1, Haws at the 2, Kyle at the 3, Austin at the 4 and Mika at the 5 next year.
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Qman
KC will provide some great defense and rebounding. He is role-player. I am curious if he can be more of point forward. Carlino and Haws can be very good shooters.
C
Cougarbib
Many have posted re how much it hurt us to lose Chris C and S Rodgers this year. Quite frankly, KC seemed better rhan CC to me. Put CC stats up here for comparison. Rodgers did nit seem to be much better thsn KC consistently. Rodgers usually was a better shooter. KC was a surprisingly good rebounder.



I would expect KC to be better than Zylstra, Cusick, Delgado, and Winder etc., have shown. But he definitely had his warts - shooting and FT shooting were surprisingly poor.



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C
Cougs_Rule
Cougarbib wrote:
Many have posted re how much it hurt us to lose Chris C and S Rodgers this year. Quite frankly, KC seemed better rhan CC to me. Put CC stats up here for comparison. Rodgers did nit seem to be much better thsn KC consistently. Rodgers usually was a better shooter. KC was a surprisingly good rebounder.



I would expect KC to be better than Zylstra, Cusick, Delgado, and Winder etc., have shown. But he definitely had his warts - shooting and FT shooting were surprisingly poor.



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KC and CC = very different players. CC was a banger, ala Kaufusi, a tough, hit the boards kind of player that Kaufusi is the most viable in filling that gap.

Yes, SR was more of a three with an offensive/Shooting game.

If BYU had--

1- Carlino/Cusick

2-Haws/winder/Delgado

3-Rogers/Sharp

4- CC/Austin

5-Davies/?? Fusi??/Harward



BYU would have taken second in the WCC, beat Zags on BYU home court, and be dancing again this year.
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nuk13
I imagined Carlino at the 1, Haws at the 2, Kyle at the 3, Austin at the 4 and Mika at the 5 next year. [/color][/quote]



I'll vote for that.
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Gunk
Cougarbib wrote:
Many have posted re how much it hurt us to lose Chris C and S Rodgers this year. Quite frankly, KC seemed better rhan CC to me. Put CC stats up here for comparison. Rodgers did nit seem to be much better thsn KC consistently. Rodgers usually was a better shooter. KC was a surprisingly good rebounder.



I would expect KC to be better than Zylstra, Cusick, Delgado, and Winder etc., have shown. But he definitely had his warts - shooting and FT shooting were surprisingly poor.



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While I think KC showed flashes of brilliance every now and then that got us excited at his potential, I don't think he'll be the next Haws. Here are the brothers' freshman year stats:



Chris Collinsworth (6'9" 235 lbs):

16.3 min/game; 5.9 pts/game; 5.6 rebounds/game; 41% FG; 74% FT; 12% 3P



Kyle Collinsworth (6'6" 210 lbs)

25.7 min/game; 5.8 pts/game; 5.1 rebounds/game; 48% FG; 57% FT; 26% 3P



It's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison given the two brothers played different positions, but if CC got as many minutes as KC did, then CC would have been near a double double every night.



CC is the bigger loss. CC's freshman numbers are better than Nate Austin's numbers. With CC on the court this year we would have had more size underneath and a player capable of producing under the basket. Instead, we got the Kaufusi experiment.
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Cougs_Rule
nuk13 wrote:
I imagined Carlino at the 1, Haws at the 2, Kyle at the 3, Austin at the 4 and Mika at the 5 next year. [/color]


I'll vote for that.[/quote]



And your imagination will probably be right. Haws will bulk up a little more and if he does, he can keep playing the three. But KC, even if he comes back in good shape, needed a serious makeover on his J. It looked ass bad as Shawn Marion's, but SM could hit the outside shot and KC struggles. Rose needs an outside shooter. Whoever steps up, will get probably get the two. But I do like KCs ability to get to the rim off the drive and his ability not run and gun. And if he's grown to 6'7" or whatever somebody said, and he can still handle the ball, that could be a great asset to help set up Haws' shooting.
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Gunk
Cougs_Rule wrote:
I imagined Carlino at the 1, Haws at the 2, Kyle at the 3, Austin at the 4 and Mika at the 5 next year. [/color]


I'll vote for that.


Cougs_Rule wrote:
And your imagination will probably be right. Haws will bulk up a little more and if he does, he can keep playing the three. But KC, even if he comes back in good shape, needed a serious makeover on his J. It looked ass bad as Shawn Marion's, but SM could hit the outside shot and KC struggles. Rose needs an outside shooter. Whoever steps up, will get probably get the two. But I do like KCs ability to get to the rim off the drive and his ability not run and gun. And if he's grown to 6'7" or whatever somebody said, and he can still handle the ball, that could be a great asset to help set up Haws' shooting.


Haws will get bigger/stronger but I doubt it will be much more than 5 lbs.



If we actually get a 2 that can shoot, between Carlino, the mystery 2, and Haws that will be a solid set of scorers. If all KC does next season is come in play defense and rebounds as well as he did towards the end of his freshman year, I'll take that. The 5 is going to be the biggest the question.



Both Harward and Austin get pushed around. Neither have a solid offensive game. Kaufusi, while big, is a fish out of water out on the court and he'll be spending his summer getting ready for football, not improving his basketball game.If Mika can hold his own underneath on defense we should be okay. But playing defense againt D1 post players vs high schoolers is a different game.
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SpiffCoug
[quote="nuk13"]I imagined Carlino at the 1, Haws at the 2, Kyle at the 3, Austin at the 4 and Mika at the 5 next year.



I'd rather use KC to get Haws to the 2 than Carlino to the 2.
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Cougs_Rule
So you want KC at the 1?? Mongo and me no understand.
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SpiffCoug
Cougs_Rule wrote:
So you want KC at the 1?? Mongo and me no understand.

No. I want Haws at the 2. He's currently m mostly a 3. I think he and BYU would be better with Haws at the 2. I think KC should be on the floor as well. He's better used as a 3 so Haws can be the 2 than KC as a 1 so Carlino can be the 2.
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