BYU Free Throw Shooting Myths

So now the issue is FT shooting is only poor because of scheduling. As if scheduling moved the FT line back 2-3 feet. It's the same shot you've been shooting since you were 8 years old. It's time to start making shots on the road (or continue to lose on the road as BYU has done this year).

One last though, I don't think our FT shooting in past 2 games is better because we are home so much as I believe it is better because they are actually practicing their FTs. You can see in KC's form that he has been working on it. I believe our team average continues to be higher the last half of the conference season.



And I still assert that 59% FT shooting is pathetic (that's our team avg without Haws)

One more try Hawk.



I have never made any assertion about how BY FT shooting at home compares to any national average of teams shooting at home. Never did. So quit asking me for data to prove that. I have no idea where to get that data. I have never made that assertion.



This is my assertion.



BYU is average in total - home and away included in that total - at shooting free throws. I acknowledged in the OP that BYU is 2-3% below average. I asserted that they are not horrible as some have ssserted. I asserted that raising that average 1% would make little difference.



Some do not seem to feel that a 2-3 % difference and 198 gs a median of 176 is not close enough to be considered average.



I then asserted that BYU would be even closer to the exact middle if they h a different not played a disproportionate number of games away from Provo. Then I gave counts of home vs away from home to show that they have plated more games away from home. Then I showed that BYU shoots significantly better at home. I showed that even Tyler Haws does. I showed that Haws is not getting the calls as often in road games. I predicted that FT% Ave will start to inch up now that they are at home. It did. I predict it will continue to do so. I have never made the assertion you keep asking me to defend. Maybe you could just quote the post right here where I made that assertion.



I have asserted that if BYU FT % were adjusted for the disparity in home vs away games, it would improve. I have backed that up.

exactly how much difference would it have made - impossible to say exactly.



How close to 176 would BYU need to be before you would consider them average.



A quick glance at the complete list of all teams with teams as low as in the 50s and as high as high 7th looks like a normal distribution.



I will let the statisticians discuss normal distributions and standard deviations and whether 198 falls into the range that would be considered average.

and if it falls a hair short - I have clearly shown that playing disproportionate number of games away from Provo is a big part of why they are slightly below the middle



now let me be really clear. Even that, would not make BYU a good FT shooting team. Just average. Mediocre. They are not horrible or an embarrassment as a Dr team.



Maybe you ought to ask someone for data to back up that hyperbole.



You have some homework. Show me where I made the claim you keep asking me to back up.



BTW, I have posted several times that BYU would need to be at 75% to be good and 77.5% to be outstanding. I have made it clear that they are nowhere near that - home or away.



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BroncoBot wrote:
So now the issue is FT shooting is only poor because of scheduling. As if scheduling moved the FT line back 2-3 feet. It's the same shot you've been shooting since you were 8 years old. It's time to start making shots on the road (or continue to lose on the road as BYU has done this year).

Can you explain that to Tyler Haws and every teammate except Carlino.



Maybe explain it to all D1 teams.



nearly all of them shoot better at home.



Go look. I posted the link. That is why most teams that end up ranked do not schedule extra road games. That is why in a separate thread I showed that actual results and expert opinions support that home court is a double digit point advantage.



This is why most really good teams almost never lose at home - see Gonzaga for just 1 example. See BYU.



That is reality.



Do you have some different data?



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BYULV wrote:
One last though, I don't think our FT shooting in past 2 games is better because we are home so much as I believe it is better because they are actually practicing their FTs. You can see in KC's form that he has been working on it. I believe our team average continues to be higher the last half of the conference season.



And I still assert that 59% FT shooting is pathetic (that's our team avg without Haws)

We totally agree about 59%. And yes, if you remove the guy who shoots half of our free throws, you end up with H a lord who is excellent, and Carlino and Winder who are OK and everyone else being bad. This is why BYU makes sure Haws is doing most of the shooting.



I agree Collinsworth looks more comfortable. At home. I pointed out some slight improvement lately on the road, but it is slight and marred by a 1-4 and a 50% outing very recent. Ie right before the homestand.



Look at the data. Player by player or as a team. All season long, all but Carlino shoot better at home.



KC 1-4 vs Zags. 6-12 Portland. 8-12 vs SCU was better. 5-7 ST a bit better. But no big jump on these roadies. 20-35. Less than 60%. Data does not support significant improvement prior to coming home.



KC was 12-18 or 67% at home vs LMU, Pepperdine, and SD.



See the pattern. 67% at home folliwed by under 60% road followed by 77% at home so far.



Then we get 6-8 Pacific and 8-10 SMV. 77%.

So exactly when did you start to see KC results improve?



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A quick glance at Witchita State non-conference schedule prior to Missouri Valley Conference play showed 10 VS and 3@.



BYU was one of the 10 teams kind enough to spot them a 10 point advantage.



Iowa State showed only 1 true road game in non-conference. BYU. Nearly lost that one. They had several neutral site games. Just 1@.



Texas. Just 1@. Some neutrals. BYU came in and spotted a double digit advantage but won anyway. This is why most of the other teams they brought in were gimmes.



Stamford had 2@ including Denver. BYU came in and spotted a double digit advantage and won anyway.



Working out pretty well for them. Coincidence? Smart Scheduling?



You decide.



Oregon had 1 true roadie in non-conference. A few neutrals.BYU came in and spotted them a 10 point advantage. Nearly won anyway. Because Oregon, like Utah, masked mediocrity with favorable scheduling until PAT play humbled both of them.



And yes, we were one of many teams to spot U a double digit advantage.







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Alabama State is 176 today. The exact median in 351 teams. They shoot 69.8% average including all games. BYU shoots 69.2% including all games. 0.6% separates BYU from being exactly in the middle.



And, yes, BYU out shoots them at home. Ironically, Alabama State is one of the few teams that buck the trend. They shoot slightly worse at home than they shoot on the road.



And, sure. Alabama State. Sucks to be down there with the likes of them.



Imagine how some of the teams listed well behind BYU feel.



UNLV

Michigan State

Virginia

North Carolina

Wake Forest

Texas

Texas A

LSU

Louisville

K State

Kentucky

Florida

Baylor

SDSU

Arizona

UMass



Just to name a few. Virginia was about 340. There are many more good teams that shoot FTs worse than BYU.



Tyler Haws is not as close to the top of the individual player ranking as I expected him to be. Hi is about 4th in WCC FT shooting %.

BIB: Here is why none of your stats and arguments matter:

I am 45, in fair but not great physical shape, never played organized BBall except church ball. I did a one hour, lower body focused workout last night and have sore, tired legs today. I played full court basketball for two hours this afternoon (I play once a week). After playing I started thinking about this thread so I went to the line and shot some free throws. I shot 4 or 5 to get warmed up then started counting the next ten shots . . . I hit the first 8, ended up 9/10! (I actually made the next 4 as well before I went home). I'm a BBall nobody! Why can I hit 9/10 and these guys are only hitting 6/10 when they're good? I guarantee I am more tired than they are at the end of a game. I'm not shooting/practicing during the week. I didn't have a crowd to distract me, but I did have guys shooting around me while I was shooting. It's not that difficult! Make at least 7/10 FT or shoot more free throws after practice, early mornings or whenever. Have the coach correct your form! There is no excuse! Any player at this level that doesn't shoot at least 70% is not putting in the time or the coaches are not correcting their form - it's as simple as that.

BYULV wrote:
BIB: Here is why none of your stats and arguments matter:

I am 45, in fair but not great physical shape, never played organized BBall except church ball. I did a one hour, lower body focused workout last night and have sore, tired legs today. I played full court basketball for two hours this afternoon (I play once a week). After playing I started thinking about this thread so I went to the line and shot some free throws. I shot 4 or 5 to get warmed up then started counting the next ten shots . . . I hit the first 8, ended up 9/10! (I actually made the next 4 as well before I went home). I'm a BBall nobody! Why can I hit 9/10 and these guys are only hitting 6/10 when they're good? I guarantee I am more tired than they are at the end of a game. I'm not shooting/practicing during the week. I didn't have a crowd to distract me, but I did have guys shooting around me while I was shooting. It's not that difficult! Make at least 7/10 FT or shoot more free throws after practice, early mornings or whenever. Have the coach correct your form! There is no excuse! Any player at this level that doesn't shoot at least 70% is not putting in the time or the coaches are not correcting their form - it's as simple as that.

When you get up to 6'7" give it a try.



BTW - number 2 formerly number 1 Arizona shoots FT worse than BYU. They played Oregon tonight. Shot under 50% as a team. Pulled out the win anyway.



Ironicaly, Oregon got their 88% guy to the line at the end. Missed.

Stuff happens on the road on national TV when the pressure is on and the crowd is letting you have it. The world is filled with guts who can knock down FTs al day long in the gym or back yard. Especially guys under 6 feet. Game time is different. Ask AZ. They just shot under 50% FT at home and won.

Cougarbib wrote:

So now the issue is FT shooting is only poor because of scheduling. As if scheduling moved the FT line back 2-3 feet. It's the same shot you've been shooting since you were 8 years old. It's time to start making shots on the road (or continue to lose on the road as BYU has done this year).

Can you explain that to Tyler Haws and every teammate except Carlino.



Maybe explain it to all D1 teams.



nearly all of them shoot better at home.



Go look. I posted the link. That is why most teams that end up ranked do not schedule extra road games. That is why in a separate thread I showed that actual results and expert opinions support that home court is a double digit point advantage.



This is why most really good teams almost never lose at home - see Gonzaga for just 1 example. See BYU.



That is reality.



Do you have some different data?



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If everyone was jumping off a cliff bib, would you?



Elite teams shoot well at home and on the road and manage to make FTs in key situations on the road and get road wins. BYU isn't there, and FTs are one reason they aren't ranked in the top 25. That's my only data I need. Fine, most teams shoot worse on the road, does that make it acceptable when BYU is a few FTs away from beating ISU, Oregon, and Wichita state would have been a whole different game with a few more made FTs.

BroncoBot wrote:

BroncoBot wrote:
So now the issue is FT shooting is only poor because of scheduling. As if scheduling moved the FT line back 2-3 feet. It's the same shot you've been shooting since you were 8 years old. It's time to start making shots on the road (or continue to lose on the road as BYU has done this year).

Can you explain that to Tyler Haws and every teammate except Carlino.



Maybe explain it to all D1 teams.



nearly all of them shoot better at home.



Go look. I posted the link. That is why most teams that end up ranked do not schedule extra road games. That is why in a separate thread I showed that actual results and expert opinions support that home court is a double digit point advantage.



This is why most really good teams almost never lose at home - see Gonzaga for just 1 example. See BYU.



That is reality.



Do you have some different data?



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If everyone was jumping off a cliff bib, would you?



Elite teams shoot well at home and on the road and manage to make FTs in key situations on the road and get road wins. BYU isn't there, and FTs are one reason they aren't ranked in the top 25. That's my only data I need. Fine, most teams shoot worse on the road, does that make it acceptable when BYU is a few FTs away from beating ISU, Oregon, and Wichita state would have been a whole different game with a few more made FTs.

I listed several elite teams including number 2 ranked team in the nation Arizona that shoot FT worse than BYU. Ironically, Oregon is the #2 free throw shooting team in the country. Came up short on the road at Arizona with their best FT shooter at the line. AZ and Oregon were both clanking away at the end.



For the record and for the 100th time. BYU FT shooting is neither good nor acceptable let alone elite. It is not horrible either. It is very average.

BYU shot 73.8% approx tonight. Every player shot above 70% except Collinsworth and Winder. Just as expected for the team. Collinsworth disappointed as did Winder vs what I expected while Mika and Worthington and others surprised.

Cougarbib wrote:

BIB: Here is why none of your stats and arguments matter:

I am 45, in fair but not great physical shape, never played organized BBall except church ball. I did a one hour, lower body focused workout last night and have sore, tired legs today. I played full court basketball for two hours this afternoon (I play once a week). After playing I started thinking about this thread so I went to the line and shot some free throws. I shot 4 or 5 to get warmed up then started counting the next ten shots . . . I hit the first 8, ended up 9/10! (I actually made the next 4 as well before I went home). I'm a BBall nobody! Why can I hit 9/10 and these guys are only hitting 6/10 when they're good? I guarantee I am more tired than they are at the end of a game. I'm not shooting/practicing during the week. I didn't have a crowd to distract me, but I did have guys shooting around me while I was shooting. It's not that difficult! Make at least 7/10 FT or shoot more free throws after practice, early mornings or whenever. Have the coach correct your form! There is no excuse! Any player at this level that doesn't shoot at least 70% is not putting in the time or the coaches are not correcting their form - it's as simple as that.

When you get up to 6'7" give it a try.



BTW - number 2 formerly number 1 Arizona shoots FT worse than BYU. They played Oregon tonight. Shot under 50% as a team. Pulled out the win anyway.



Ironicaly, Oregon got their 88% guy to the line at the end. Missed.

Stuff happens on the road on national TV when the pressure is on and the crowd is letting you have it. The world is filled with guts who can knock down FTs al day long in the gym or back yard. Especially guys under 6 feet. Game time is different. Ask AZ. They just shot under 50% FT at home and won.

Plenty of guys taller than 6'7" shoot FTs well, lame excuse. Collinsworth looked good at the line until late in the game. If you watch, you'll see late in the game he goes back to having that little hesitation as he brings the ball up to shoot. He has been practicing, but still hasn't done enough to keep the old form from breaking through when he's tired. I still think 70% as a minimum is not unreasonable (not as a team,but individually).

How many teams do you know that meet that criteria? No individual under 70%.



BTW - I agree that KC can improve and is improving.



EDIT: I looked up Providence - the #1 rated FT shooting team in the country. They only have 11 players on their roster. They have 4 guys over 80% including 1 guy who is 3-3 on the season and another guy at 75%.



They have another guy who is 0-0. Scratch him.



The other 5 guys shoot below 70% and some are below 60%.



They get the right guys to the line. I would guess that they start 3 guys who shoot over 80%, the guy at 75%, and someone under 70%.



That is your #1 FT shooting team in the country. Providence is 11-2 at home and 3-3 on the road and 2-2 Neutral. Lost to UMass. Home Sweet Home for them, too.



EDIT 2:



Oregon is #2. No wonder they looked better at the line at home vs BYU on the road. There roster has 16 players. Four of them have zero attempts.



Of the other 12, half are above 70% and half are below. One shoots under 53%. Luckily, 3 teammates get more attempts. Another gets the same number of atrempts. Two players are under 60%. There are your #2 ducks. Came up short at the line on the road vs AZ who is poor at FT shooting.



BYU starts Haws and Halford at over 80%, and, unfortunately, all 3 other starters are under 70%. MC and Winder off the bench are above 70%. The rest of the bench is not good. That is why BYU is average and Providence is elite at FT shooting. The Providence coach probably prays that nobody gets into foul teouble, because his bench does not shoot FT well.



It is clear that BYU fans miss the days when our team was elite and shot 77.5%.



People bag on Collinsworth. He deserves some of that. What about Carlino. What is his excuse? Short guard

White guy. Supposed to be money. What about Bartley. Short Guard. Terrible FT shooter. What about Sharp. Skinny white guy. Can't do much else. You would think he could hit a FT.



Collinsworth got 18 or 19 points, made FTs when it mattered, led or tied for lead in steals and assists, got some rebounds, probably a block or two. Filled the stat sheet. I would guess he is working on FT shooting.



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The National median is 69.8% still, but Rutgers is now in the middle spot at 176.



BYU moved up from 69.2% to 69.4% playing at home and shooting about 73% last night.



BYU is now 189 - just 0.4% below Rutgers and 13 spots behind out of 351.



Average. Not good. Certainly not great. Not horrible. Average.



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Bib,

I have no idea where you get the idea that white people shoot better free throws than black people, or how you can suggest they are supposed to shoot better simply because they are white and therefore non athletic.



Btw, white, unathletic Sharp is actually one of the more athletic members of our team if you're basing athleticism on speed and vertical jumping ability. Also, he is 6''7" tall and therefore according to your logic should not be held to the same standard as a shorter guy. Collinsworth is 6'5"-6'6" tall, so he should be hitting over 85% of his FT attempts as well since he is obviously a short, white, unathletic player as well.

Cougarbib wrote:

Cougarbib wrote:

So now the issue is FT shooting is only poor because of scheduling. As if scheduling moved the FT line back 2-3 feet. It's the same shot you've been shooting since you were 8 years old. It's time to start making shots on the road (or continue to lose on the road as BYU has done this year).

Can you explain that to Tyler Haws and every teammate except Carlino.



Maybe explain it to all D1 teams.



nearly all of them shoot better at home.



Go look. I posted the link. That is why most teams that end up ranked do not schedule extra road games. That is why in a separate thread I showed that actual results and expert opinions support that home court is a double digit point advantage.



This is why most really good teams almost never lose at home - see Gonzaga for just 1 example. See BYU.



That is reality.



Do you have some different data?



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If everyone was jumping off a cliff bib, would you?



Elite teams shoot well at home and on the road and manage to make FTs in key situations on the road and get road wins. BYU isn't there, and FTs are one reason they aren't ranked in the top 25. That's my only data I need. Fine, most teams shoot worse on the road, does that make it acceptable when BYU is a few FTs away from beating ISU, Oregon, and Wichita state would have been a whole different game with a few more made FTs.

I listed several elite teams including number 2 ranked team in the nation Arizona that shoot FT worse than BYU. Ironically, Oregon is the #2 free throw shooting team in the country. Came up short on the road at Arizona with their best FT shooter at the line. AZ and Oregon were both clanking away at the end.



For the record and for the 100th time. BYU FT shooting is neither good nor acceptable let alone elite. It is not horrible either. It is very average.

FT% is around average, as is many other aspects of this year's team. Which is why they have lost some games that they had a real shot at winning. FT is one area that could have easily turned a L into a W.

BYULV wrote:
Bib,

I have no idea where you get the idea that white people shoot better free throws than black people, or how you can suggest they are supposed to shoot better simply because they are white and therefore non athletic.



Btw, white, unathletic Sharp is actually one of the more athletic members of our team if you're basing athleticism on speed and vertical jumping ability. Also, he is 6''7" tall and therefore according to your logic should not be held to the same standard as a shorter guy. Collinsworth is 6'5"-6'6" tall, so he should be hitting over 85% of his FT attempts as well since he is obviously a short, white, unathletic player as well.

TIC



White men can't jump. They shoot free throws. They are not athletic. Stereotype for sure. But take a look at the NBA.



NBA quite some time ago started prioritizing athleticism over shooting. See Big East. Same.



yes - Sharp is fairly athletic for a skinny white guy that gets pushed all over the court. My point about him is that even as a 4th year player he can't do much of anything. You would think he must have spent his time practicing free throws since fans claim he did nothing in the off season.



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Cougarbib wrote:
BYU shot 73.8% approx tonight. Every player shot above 70% except Collinsworth and Winder. Just as expected for the team. Collinsworth disappointed as did Winder vs what I expected while Mika and Worthington and others surprised.

So a night where every player was above 70% was to be expected for team that shoots below 70% as a team?

SpiffCoug wrote:

BYU shot 73.8% approx tonight. Every player shot individual above 70% except Collinsworth and Winder. Just as expected for the team. Collinsworth disappointed as did Winder vs what I expected while Mika and Worthington and others surprised.

So a night where every player was above 70% was to be expected for team that shoots below 70% as a team?

Yes. They are at home. I already showed the data. They shoot better at home. Consistently. You can almost bank on that.



Well - no, actually. I reread your question more precisely. You are asking about the Individual player performances. So, read my post more precisely. I said the TEAM result was expected. The individual performances were mostly unexpected. Sorry if that was not clear enough. I would have expected Collinsworth and Winder to be well above 70% - 75% or higher at home. I would have expected anyone else not named Haws, Halford, or Carlino to be below 70%.



Bold Bibster Prediction.



BYU will shoot above 70% again tonight. At home. My guess. 72.5% or higher.



BYU will slip slightly in the two games that follow. I would guess a 3 point drop from whatever they get tonight.



It may depend on how competitive the game is. BYU was something like 22/24 at one point Thursday. But it was a blowout. Haws sat the last 10 minutes or more. Reserves finished out. FT% dropped from 90+ down to 70+ - very quickly.



So who knows, really - But when I make predictions, I love data. Data says BYU will shoot over 70% at home.



What does your data show? What did you expect Thursday? What do you expect tonight?



Data is data. With a little insight, data becomes information.



But you know that. You are the data guru. You are one of my favorite sources of data - when you share yours.



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