Archived Topic

How Badly Will TCU Beat Boise State?

by Mars · 1/2/2010

ABYUFAN

1/5/2010, 6:13:56 PM

BoiseBYU wrote:

Stalemate at the line of scrimmage? BSU owned the clock, rushed for twice as many yards as TCU and got two sacks to TCU's zero...How can you call that a draw?

Like this:

All right... We'll call it a draw...

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail021.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Lawboy

1/5/2010, 6:15:47 PM

Rushing for 70 yards is hardly owning a team. And if BSU hung in the pocket as long as TCU did, more sacks happen. Credit to BSU for having a plan to get rid of the ball fast, but that O-line gave up pressure all game, and produced less than 100 yards running--hardly dominant. Their was a reason BSU only produced 10 pts of offense, and it was because the TCU defense shut them down. And it is pressure, not sacks, that defines line play dominance. TCU had constant pressure, even if no sacks. I'd say Dalton had more time to throw in the game than Moore had.

Like I said, 3 plays turned it. Stalemate otherwise.

As to time of possession, that was a key to the BSU win for sure. But had TCU's receivers caught a few balls they dropped, again, things are different.

snoscythe

1/5/2010, 6:16:13 PM

BoiseBYU wrote:
Stalemate at the line of scrimmage? BSU owned the clock, rushed for twice as many yards as TCU and got two sacks to TCU's zero...How can you call that a draw?

I agree that BSU won the trenches last night, but it was a closer match than your supporting arguments make it seem. TCU's backs had almost twice the ypc of the BSU backs and owning the clock had a lot to do with turnovers that had nothing to do with the LOS battle.

The biggest thing was BSU stopping Jerry Hughes cold.

BoiseBYU

1/5/2010, 6:25:22 PM

snoscythe wrote:
Stalemate at the line of scrimmage? BSU owned the clock, rushed for twice as many yards as TCU and got two sacks to TCU's zero...How can you call that a draw?

I agree that BSU won the trenches last night, but it was a closer match than your supporting arguments make it seem. TCU's backs had almost twice the ypc of the BSU backs and owning the clock had a lot to do with turnovers that had nothing to do with the LOS battle.

The biggest thing was BSU stopping Jerry Hughes cold.

I can live with that statement. I said BSU was the more dominant of the two teams and won the LOS. I did not mean to say that BSU dominated TCU...they just were, in my view the more dominant. I can see where what I said could be construed more broadly. Semantics aside I never thought that what I saw last night would happen in a million years....But then BSU totallly took it to Oregon too and won the LOS there also...

Short_Change

1/5/2010, 6:32:24 PM

Another key play was the last int. How many times do you see a pass down the sideline get popped straight up in the air? BSU got all the bounces and still barely won. Is BSU a good team? Of course. Are they a better team than TCU? I think not. Another thing, I can't remember if BSU scored after that bogus defensive pass interference which actually should have been offensive pass interference, but if they did that would be another key play/lucky bounce that allowed BSU to win.

Guest

1/5/2010, 6:32:44 PM

kitic77 wrote:
Fact is, this game was so very close that it turned on a few key plays. Key play 1 was the pick 6. Key play 2 was the fake punt for a 1st down. Key play 3 was the TD pass dropped by the TCU receiver that would have tied it at 17. If those 3 plays goes TCU's way instead of BSu's way, that talk is of how TCU shut down the BSU offense, which they did, and how physical they looked on defense, which they did.

And TCU wins at least 17-3.

Didn't Bronco say that just about every game, including blowouts always hinge on about 3-5 key plays.

CAFB_04-12

1/5/2010, 6:42:34 PM

hawkwing wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
Fact is, this game was so very close that it turned on a few key plays. Key play 1 was the pick 6. Key play 2 was the fake punt for a 1st down. Key play 3 was the TD pass dropped by the TCU receiver that would have tied it at 17. If those 3 plays goes TCU's way instead of BSu's way, that talk is of how TCU shut down the BSU offense, which they did, and how physical they looked on defense, which they did.

And TCU wins at least 17-3.

Didn't Bronco say that just about every game, including blowouts always hinge on about 3-5 key plays.

Yeah, you're right on here, hawk. In the game I saw both teams played pretty well even on both sides. TCU had a pick-6 and two costly INTs. On the other side, BSU had a HUGE 4th down conversion (did TCU really not expect this? I actually expected the fake on the previous 4th down BSU had). So, by my count that is 3 plays that could have tilted the outcome the other way. No doubt in my mind that BSU made the defensive plays they needed to win. That and a critical 4th down trick play. Nothing shady about a well-timed trick play. Good coaching to me (if you convert. You just look like Crowton if you don't).

I don't think TCU played as strong on offense as they usually do. BSU did a great job of containing Hughes with a double team all night. I think BSU played better defense than they usually do. That about sums it up for me.

mormonrasta

1/5/2010, 6:51:54 PM

snoscythe wrote:
snoscythe wrote:
TCU conceded that BSU was the tougher and more physical team by the fact that they closed the game running EIGHTEEN STRAIGHT PASSING PLAYS to finish the game.

Yeah, they totally conceded that BSU was tougher by passing when down by a touchdown in the 4th quarter. You call it tough, I call it clock management.

What I referred to as bush-league was BSU's defensive tackle mimicking the snap count in the first quarter that led to all the false-start penalties on TCU's right side. Nothing tough about that.

The last 8 passes were clock management. The previous 10? Hardly. They weren't down by a TD until halfway through the 4th quarter. You don't need clock management in a tied game. Even after they were down by a TD they had first and 10 at the BSU 30 with over 5 minutes left. Do you need clock management there? Nope. Just 4 more passing plays giving BSU a chance to close out the game.

You absolutely manage the clock in a close game, especially when the opposing offense hasn't done anything all game. Until BSU scored their offensive touchdown, TCU thought they had the game in the bag as long as they could get one more point on the board. Their defense had shut down BSU for the entire half to that point, and the offense just needed to move down the field into field goal range.

TCU's backs averaged 4.18 ypc last night. BSU's backs averaged 3.38 before they started running out the clock (which dropped them to 2.52 ypc). Which offense was getting out-toughed in the run? Was BSU just too dumb to realize that TCU's run D was too tough? TCU giving up the run had nothing to do with production.

When your defense is shutting a team down and you are having success in the air, you put the ball in the air and try to keep the game from going to overtime where the opposing team's ineffectual offense gets the ball at the 35 yard line.

Is "taking what the defense gives you" admitting that the other team is tougher, or is it smart football?

Is 3rd and 10 smarter than 3rd and 7 or 3rd and 6? We're talking about basic football. Yes, TCU shut down BSU's running game, but TCU had to honor BSU's running game because Boise was commited to it which helped free things up for their play action passing game.

On the other hand, TCU didn't show the same kind of commitment to the run even though statistically they were more successful running with their backs. They became one dimensional and played right into Boise's hands. Not surprisingly, TCU was terrible on 3rd down because very often TCU was in a 3rd and long situation.

It wasn't strategy that led them to abandoning the run. It was panic. BSU showed far more mental toughness in this game.

Mars

1/5/2010, 8:59:27 PM

snoscythe wrote:
Did BSU play the better game last night? Yes. Is BSU a better team than TCU. I don't think so.

You probably also think that Oregon State is still better than BYU. It's the dumbest argument in all of sports.

Wickchad

1/5/2010, 9:27:01 PM

I was watching Hughes most of the night and I was unimpressed with his effort. There were very few plays were he actually fired off and put pressure on the tackle to contain him around the corner. Most plays he pretty much just popped up and reacted to what was happening. It almost looked like he was taking half of the plays off.

I realize that there may have been some defensive calls where he was supposed to do that, but it didn't seem like he was getting after it that often.

Short_Change

1/5/2010, 11:10:19 PM

Mars wrote:
Did BSU play the better game last night? Yes. Is BSU a better team than TCU. I don't think so.

You probably also think that Oregon State is still better than BYU. It's the dumbest argument in all of sports.

Not so fast Mars. When I was in HS I played baseball and our program wasn't very good. My senior year we only won 4 games and got "10 runned" quite a few times. One of those wins was against the eventual state champs. We also lost a game in 16 innings vs the top team in our region. Very interesting. Were we better than the state champs or almost as good as the best team in our region? Heck no! So just because you beat someone doesn't necessarily mean you're the better team.

westidahocougar

1/6/2010, 7:00:17 AM

This is crazy. This thread started as TCU will manhandle BSU and is the best team that BSU has ever played...they are not worthy to carry their jocks....etc, etc, etc....

Now we are rationalizing the loss and saying TCU is still better despite what happened on the field???? I imagine this exact same thread was on the Alabama boards last year too. Probably Oregon States too. Probably OU's at the beginning of the year as well.

Whats next to come out of this delusion? BSU wouldnt be able to handle the week in week out rigors of the grueling MWC schedule? The MWC has more NFL players than BSU?

Mars

1/6/2010, 10:16:02 AM

Short_Change wrote:
just because you beat someone doesn't necessarily mean you're the better team.

Not if the overall records are vastly dissimilar. Which is clearly not the case with BSU>TCU. Boise State not only won the head-to-head, but they also have the better offense, two more wins and one less loss than TCU. Comparing the loss for TCU to BYU's loss to Florida State is not only silly, it's intellectually dishonest.

snoscythe

1/6/2010, 12:44:36 PM

Mars wrote:
just because you beat someone doesn't necessarily mean you're the better team.

Not if the overall records are vastly dissimilar. Which is clearly not the case with BSU>TCU. Boise State not only won the head-to-head, but they also have the better offense, two more wins and one less loss than TCU. Comparing the loss for TCU to BYU's loss to Florida State is not only silly, it's intellectually dishonest.

Claiming that just because teams have similar records the head-to-head win suddenly proves who the better team is what is intellectually dishonest. All a single game proves is that one team had more points on the scoreboard than another on a given day. Note that in your own argument you still have to refer to things like who has the better offense, who has more wins and losses, etc. If the head-to-head proved who was better, why do you need to refer to those things? Because the head to head is just one more piece of data in the argument as to who is the better team.

I still think TCU is the better team. They play that game 10 times, TCU wins 6 or 7 times.

snoscythe

1/6/2010, 12:47:57 PM

Mars wrote:
Did BSU play the better game last night? Yes. Is BSU a better team than TCU. I don't think so.

You probably also think that Oregon State is still better than BYU. It's the dumbest argument in all of sports.

You honestly think the Arizona Cardinals were the best team in the NFC last season? Do you honestly think that the best team in every sport wins its respective championship every year? RSL is the best team in MLS?

To argue that the best team always wins is asinine.

Mars

1/6/2010, 6:32:35 PM

snoscythe wrote:
To argue that the best team always wins is asinine.

That's why it's not my argument, clearly. But to argue that TCU > Boise State is beyond asinine. And sadly, you actually seem to believe that fantasy-land brainlessness. There's absolutely no defense for your position, besides bad-sportsmanship and wishful thinking.

Lawboy

1/6/2010, 6:37:21 PM

I think if TCU and BSU played 10 times, TCU wins 6 or 7. So overall, TCU has the better talent, as the NFL draft will show the next 2-3 years, and is a better team.

Having said that, BSU got it done on the one day that matters most.

By the way, I am shocked by the number of latent Boise State fans on this BYU board. Honestly, screw BSU. I hate them just like I hate Utah, just as I hate TCU. I wanted TCU to win solely because they are a MWC team. Otherwise, do no care. Clearly many of you are closet Broncos fans.

Mars

1/6/2010, 7:51:34 PM

Lawboy wrote:
TCU has the better talent, as the NFL draft will show the next 2-3 years, and is a better team.

I guess that means Notre Dame is a better team this year than TCU... :sick:

cougarsunited

1/6/2010, 8:18:32 PM

snoscythe wrote:
Short_Change wrote:
just because you beat someone doesn't necessarily mean you're the better team.

Not if the overall records are vastly dissimilar. Which is clearly not the case with BSU>TCU. Boise State not only won the head-to-head, but they also have the better offense, two more wins and one less loss than TCU. Comparing the loss for TCU to BYU's loss to Florida State is not only silly, it's intellectually dishonest.

Claiming that just because teams have similar records the head-to-head win suddenly proves who the better team is what is intellectually dishonest. All a single game proves is that one team had more points on the scoreboard than another on a given day. Note that in your own argument you still have to refer to things like who has the better offense, who has more wins and losses, etc. If the head-to-head proved who was better, why do you need to refer to those things? Because the head to head is just one more piece of data in the argument as to who is the better team.

I still think TCU is the better team. They play that game 10 times, TCU wins 6 or 7 times.

Amen!

cougarsunited

1/6/2010, 8:22:52 PM

Mars wrote:
TCU has the better talent, as the NFL draft will show the next 2-3 years, and is a better team.

I guess that means Notre Dame is a better team this year than TCU... :sick:

And Florida State is better than BYU... listen to yourself. Of course TCU is better than Boise State, TCU was so nervous and played terrible, its worst game in almost two years, a 17-10 score is nothing to brag about....

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